5:2 Thread No. 79: We’re avoiding POO CRUMBS on communal cake & biscuits and enjoying our meals instead

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
(optional) Guide Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Also:

• Allow one treat - sensible portion - on say 2 or 3 NFDs per week Alternatively, some folk find going cold turkey easier
• Cut out takeaways and deep-fried food

FD here today too! Going ok, managed to avoid temptation in the form of chocolate cake that one of our suppliers sent. There's a sliver waiting for me tomorrow

Crash hope your first FD in a while is going well
stir how did you get on today?
bcf 37 degrees we're 34 here today, the hamster has not been happy and she's a desert creature!
dove not to worry, better to be prepared tomorrow

Happy holidays badger

Excellent discipline over the choc cake, drop
Our 5:2 FD mantra:
"I can have it tomorrow"

(pokes head round door shamefacedly)

Cannot remember the last time I fasted. Went on holiday and haven’t managed to get out of holiday mode. I’ve only managed a couple of half hearted fast days in the last 6 weeks. I am practically barrel shaped and daren’t step on the scales. Help!

I’m determined to fast tomorrow.

Bad news = I did snack today. Four rice cakes at about 4.30.

Good news = I only snacked on four rice cakes today at 4.30.

Today's food:

Rice crispies with semi milk, banana

3 Ryvita, slice of ham, an egg, a tomato, some bread sticks, yoghurt berries and seeds, apple

THOSE rice cakes

2 gin and tonics

Chicken stew made by DH - celery, olives, homemade tomato sauce, courgette, chicken breast, mushrooms, herbs and spices - delicious.

Swam a mile this afternoon.

Weighed myself this morning after second fast and I was exactly the same as last week after the second fast. I'm going to fast again tomorrow but it did annoy me. Especially as on nfd's I'm eating 400 cals less than tdee. Could my bad weekend of wine and McDonald's really affected me that much?!

Kitchen closed at 580. Was a bit lower but I've been struggling since 8pm so have slowly sipped a small glass of milk to take the edge off the hunger. I can't sleep if I'm hungry and it's already challenging because of the heat.

new york I,'ve had that for 2 weeks, it is frustrating. Keep it up though x

Good luck Friday fasters

Ended up on b2b, kitchen closed at 622. Went over yesterday so I said I'd try and it all worked out 😁.

When do the cravings stop?! I'm fine eating less, but the cravings!

Thank you BCF

I was ill last year (quite prolonged and with some nasty meds) That explains some of the weight gain because I couldn't really exercise. Fully recovered now though thank goodness!

I am trying but I'm just getting frustrated as I don't feel I'm getting anywhere... but I have managed an 800 cal fast day today. I'll aim to fit a swim in this weekend too.

Thank you all xxx

You can do it maz

iam that sounds delicious

Thanks Crash. I’ve written up a quick chart to track my calories/exercise. I know I can use mfp, but I feel more committed to it when it’s written down in black and white. I’ve put it by my bed so it’s the first thing I see when I wake.

Morning everyone, welcome crash and welcome back maz

Newyork that is very frustrating, is totm due or maybe do you only have a little to lose? Keep at it and don't get disheartened and you'll probably get a whoosh soon if you haven't been eating back your deficit.

Fd here today, anyone else?

crash it really was. My husband is a whizz in the kitchen and loves cooking which is fab for me as I don't. I rely far too much on him cooking to eat decent meals. There was loads of smoked paprika in it too, yummy. He made a lovely fish curry this week too. He likes to eat healthily too so I know he doesn't add any nasties to any of it [control freak]

Haven't fasted this week as on hols but weighed this morning and was 8 9, so happy I haven't gone too mad, and managing lots of exercise.

Off to walk dogs before it gets too hot!!

Hello, long time lurker here. Have found this thread so useful. I started the 5:2 at the end of April having found it really hard to shift the last bit of my baby weight and having piled on additional pounds after going back to work but still eating as unhealthily as I had been while on mat leave (but not having the numerous daily walks and breastfeeding to offset it). I lost 6 lb in the first month and since then less than one pound. I took a break while on hols for a week and took another couple of weeks off while feeling ill (but was still sensible). I’m not doing much exercise as it’s too hot, but do walk everyday. Yesterday I fasted and came in at less than 500 cals (just one meal in the evening) and walked for 1.5 hours and drank loads of water, yet no loss showing on the scales today. I’m reasonably sensible on NFDs and try to to 16:8 or 10:14 most days, don’t drink much alcohol. What can I do to speed things along?! I’ve 2 more pounds to lose until I’m
Back to pre baby weight, then another half a stone to get back to the weight I was before we started doing fertility treatment to have the baby (which played havoc with my weight plus I
Was comfort eating)

Welcome back, Maz You know you can do this
If you weigh and measure yourself, that is motivation, as well as giving you a baseline to monitor progress.

Work on nailing the
5:2 healthy habits: NO snacking / grazing, NHS alcohol limits, sensible about treats, lots of water & ver

This time, when you get to goal, go to a definite maintenance plan, so you never have to lose that weight again, because ...

If you return to your old WOE, you'll return to your old weight & waist

That's a good step along the way to zapping the snack habit, blossom
Those rice cakes, from the timing, could be your tea
It looks like you need that 4th meal

The only other thing is to make sure that alcohol is with a meal, never on its own

boys If those cravings are for sugar / crisps, other junk,
the strength of the craving indicates how important it is to beat them.
New habits typically take a month to form, but sugar cravings usually go within a couple of weeks.

However, if you eat a lot of other processed carbs - white rice, white bread, pasta etc - then it can take a lot longer.
I recommend:

Swap starchy carbs for less processed / wholegrain versions:

White bread ==> rye bread or 100% wholegrain / wholemeal
White rice ==> brown / red rice
Breakfast cereals ==> porridge (not the favoured instant kind)
Quinoa is a very good choice

Boost: beans, peas, lentils which help control blood sugar. Also natural full-fat Greek yoghurt

Cut out: fruit juice, dried fruit, breakfast cereal, beers - and keep to NHS guidelines for wine

If you have gone low carb and those cravings are for any carbs, then go to healthy carbs,
i.e. still cut out sugary junk, crisps, deep-fried food but add back the less processed carbs I listed above

Morning everyone - FD yesterday did quite well with loads of water...but then one of the patients went out with their mum & came back with ice creams for everyone - other parents and all the staff! How unbelievably kind of them. I choose the smallest choc ice over my favourite magnum to minimise the damage....

Weigh day today = 11st 12lb

12lbs off in 3 months. That’s ok right?

I am going to do a week of religiously tracking. We go on holiday in 3 weeks and am determined to be 11st 10 or less.

Good luck Friday fasters!!

Welcome, dailymail
If you are already within healthy BMI, trying to lose another half stone, then those last few lb can be very slow
You probably need to be quite strict, expecially to boost the pace when it's too hot to exercise and your metabolism may have dialled down a little.

I recommend 1 week on mfp as a reality check, to highlight any hidden calorie bombs etc - 16:8 can help on NFDs, but you could still be eating / drinking well above TDEE

Newyork How long have you sts ?
Is totm near - that can easily add a few lb water bloat.
1 week is nothing - natural fluctuations in retained water etc, especially with the heat, can disguise say a 1lb loss
A plateau is defined as at least 3 weeks without progress.
If you are within healthy BMI, then your loss is likely to be slower than average

If none of the above apply, I recommend one week mfp for you too - especially including the weekend:

An indulgent / junky / boozy weekend - especially if it includes Friday evening - is 2 to 3 of your 5 NFDs, so you could easily be eating & drinking back the FD deficit plus the 400 x 2 deficit on the other NFDs
In the weight loss phase, most people need to move to an indulgent meal rather than nthe whole weekend

Even at weekends, for health as well as weight, keep to
5:2 healthy habits: NO snacking / grazing, NHS alcohol limits, sensible about treats, lots of water & veg

Remember:
Your old eating & drinking habits are what put on the weight, so you need to change them - permanently - to lose
Especially change them so you don't regain as soon as you go into maintenance

As we get older, our body changes and no longer tolerates what it used to. TDEE drops with age , too
So eating & drinking must change

Well done on your SV, plus
Good progress
Stay focused and your holiday goal is very reasonable.

Important: before you go on holiday, write down in your calendar the date of your first FD afterwards
It's too easy to carry on holiday habits for weeks afterwards and never get back to fasting

Successful FD yesterday.. caved right at the end and went to pub with girls for a cheeky G&T but the 21000 steps must have cancelled it out as 65.5 on the scales this morning!

I’m kind of a bit gobsmacked that this way of eating is actually working for me? It will be interesting to see where the plateau hits.. I’m guessing around 63 as that’s always been a sticking point. I finally took all my measurements too, it would be so nice to fit into some of my old clothes!

Well done to everyone else fasting in this stinking hot weather.. salted caramel ice cream.. yum!

Taking the kids on a picnic this morning, then we’re going to the fair in the afternoon. Will chug on with water and black coffee. Knowing I can have a ton of diet fizzy drink if things get tough will be my safety net.

Repeat: must resist the candy floss!

Now I need to plan my FD dinner.

BCF - you do keep us on the straight and narrow, I do usually glue a pint first thing but forgot this morning saw your post and went and got one!

Good luck dove for your fast today. You will nail it.

Crash - the main thing is your back here now doing it. And that counts for a lot. Maybe have a think what motivates you. For me it was treats at each 7lb milestone. (Not foodtreats) hair done, nails done, new makeup, new top I had my eye on. I wrote it all down and each 7lbs I lost I bought what was on the list that worked great for me. And we should be rewarded for our efforts.
Well done on your FD.

Well done on resisting temptation DropZone.

Maz - You know the drill back on it tomorrow, a couple of good FDs and you will be back in the swing again.

NewYork- could you be at a Plateau I wonder? It can happen at anytime or TOTM. If your MFPing and under TDEE and 2 FDs I cant see why your not loosing unless you’ve hit a plateau.

DropZone - well done on your FD.

Well done on your B2B Boys, I get cravings all the time usually on NFDs. I’ve never shifted from the “what is there to eat now mindset” just try and ignore it and go with the mantra I can have it tomorrow.

43 good luck for your FD.

Blossom- well done, that’s absolutely fantastic.

Welcome DailyMail. Hmm to speed things up. Well I would say if you can drop carbs a bit or go over to the med style diet that should give you a real boost. I did that myself after Xmas as a boost to get my last stone off and it worked wonders. I found it tough but it was worth it as I was stuck in a cycle of loose a bit gain it back.

Plus - that’s fantastic you’ve so nearly lost a stone! It’s a gentle approach but goes to show it really does work.

Stir- well done that’s great it’s working for you. It’s a fabulous WOL.

Good luck to everyone fasting today! Xx

well done on your SVs plus and stir
Welcome daily

Thanks quacking I am out with a friend tomorrow, getting a tattoo done followed by tequila and tacos so I need to do damage limitation today!!

Maz, good luck with the picnic.. I hope you can find some shade.. I’m rain dancing in the garden.. love a good storm!

What tattoo are you getting 43? I hate needles so it would take more than tequila to persuade me!

Keep going with the water quacking.. in this heat I swear we are literally melting! I quite like the electrolyte drinks.. zero calories but make water taste far nicer!