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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 79: We’re avoiding POO CRUMBS on communal cake & biscuits and enjoying our meals instead

972 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2018 11:09

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
(optional) Guide Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
BigChocFrenzy · 25/07/2018 15:14

Blossom You could just increase the size of your last meal
and then clean teeth immediately afterwards.

You need to get used to the idea of being hungry for the hour before meals - that's how humans lived for millenia, until about 1980 when snacks were invented.

I suggest moving to 4 meals, no snacks, to start with
You can surely survive 4 hours between meals, without enriching the snack manufacturers

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 25/07/2018 15:45

boys keep glugging the water but i've found that your body will soon adapt to FD, I actually look forward to them now and sometimes find them easier to navigate than NFDs

stir I'm only off with him 1 day this week but boy he does not shut up from getting up to going to bed and my ears are bleeding Grin is this normal 7 year old behaviour???

35C bcf where is the melting emoji and an exercise class with no air con, you are obviously super fit??

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 25/07/2018 15:47

...on the plus side I now know an awful lot about Super Mario and his various enemies and also have a practically encyclopedic knowledge of the various generations of Pokemon and which youtubers are the funniest Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 25/07/2018 16:35

43 < weeps at fond memories of 27C >

OP posts:
plus3 · 25/07/2018 17:19

Thanks quacking I am not giving up ...just would like to see a positive loss again.
Forty completely agree about the FD almost being easier than the NFD ...I haven’t been as disciplined with MFP on my NFDs so will tighten things up.
bcf will concentrate on good NFDs - I really don’t want to go to 4:3. I want this to be a WOE for life, so working on the NFDs it is.

Today have had a frothy coffe, granola with milk and planning pea & prawn risotto for dinner = 938. Had breakfast late (I know, after a FD!) as did some yoga, so sort of missed lunch. So will eat something in a bit (if genuinely hungry) as won’t eat until later when DH is home.

Hope the Wednesday fasters are going well!

Boysmomma · 25/07/2018 17:55

I almost did stir, fucking hell that drive home nearly killed me.
That sounds amazing T1P, I'll pick that up over the weekend, already drooling.
LOVE the puns quacking, keep em coming 😁

Boysmomma · 25/07/2018 17:57

43, if I haven't lost at least 2st with the the constant peeing I'll be gutted. My oldest is 6 and loves minecraft, and nerf guns on YouTube. Apparently it's better than the real thing Hmm

Ta1kinpeace · 25/07/2018 18:55

boysmomma
Get him into Eepybird and the Slo-mo guys
hours of fun on youtube and stuff that CANNOT be done at home Grin

Stircrazyschoolmum · 25/07/2018 19:54

Ok, well I've completely ballsed today up.. took the kids to Byron to escape the heat of the house and scarfed a burger, fries and a large G&T.. this is what the kids do to me!

FD tomorrow.. at least that will stop me gaining weight! My eldest is Fortnite crazy at the moment.. both love minecraft (its online lego right?!) Their favourite hobby is bickering...

badger82 · 25/07/2018 22:05

Was angelic until we got home after a long hot commute. We go to France tomorrow and hubby said "it wouldn't feel right not to have a glass of wine" as it's officially holidays now. So we have had a g&t and a glass of wine but had an AMAZING 500 cal dinner from M&S comprising a few of their healthy salads and a big bag of green leaves and some salmon skewers. So much volume for 500cals.

I feel slightly bad about capitulating and having a vino but not too bad. Will weigh in tomorrow AM to record my pre hol weight but am happy I hit my goal of 64 something a few weeks ago. Hoping to limit damage and not go too far beyond 66 on hols ready for FDs to recommence on our return. Hubby has done amazingly, he's lost 9kg in 2 months.

BigChocFrenzy · 25/07/2018 22:40

Congrats to MrBadger on his SV

OP posts:
dovegrey18 · 25/07/2018 23:12

Checking in for FD tomorrow.. whose with me? First one in months so could be a tough day. So hot as well but need to remember to drink enough!

Iamblossom · 26/07/2018 07:50

Right today I am having four meals and no snacks. Surrounded by snack food after an epic bbq with friends last night.

badger82 · 26/07/2018 08:07

BCf he is quite smug when he's skinny as he has got far better self discipline than me 😂

BigChocFrenzy · 26/07/2018 08:26

I'm fasting too, dove as I'm not very hungry atm - it's now around 37C, near body temp
I manage an early morning jog, but that's it now for exercise

Good luck, blossom You can do this and kick the snacks into touch.
< Remember: my drone will be hovering above you, ready with fire orders Wink >

badger Unfortunately, due to biology, blokes tend to lose more quickly than women on any diet.
if they are smart, they keep quiet
Additionally on 5:2, even with 600 or 800 cal FDs, their usually higher TDEE produces a bigger deficit
btw, many women gain weight when they meet their OH and start eating / drinking the same as he does

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 26/07/2018 10:02

confession here too.... was doing so well and then DH came home with a bottle of wine, managed to stay to TDEE but big fail on no alcohol, i'm so weak willed in this sunshine, it is definitely making me drink more Shock

OMG bcf how are you coping?

quackingduck222 · 26/07/2018 10:03

NewYork good luck for your weigh in tomorrow I’m crossing my fingers for you. That’s great that your not finding it as hard as week one. The body does adapt pretty quickly.

Boys - well done on your first FD. After your first week it will become easier as it becomes the new normal.

HonkyWonk- That is the absolute beauty of it, it’s so flexible.

Stir - tomorrow is another day. Don’t feel too disheartened these things happen.

Badger - congratulations on hitting your goal with time to spare that’s great. Is Mr Badger 5:2ing with you?

DoveGrey - good luck for your FD today.

I was planning a FD today but as were probably going out for dinner Friday I’m going to save it for Saturday as that makes more sense. I must go for a run today as I’ve got 16 miles left to cover by the end of the month for my 50 mile challenge. Unfortunately if I didn’t sign up to them I know I wouldn’t do it so it keeps me on my toes.

Good luck to everyone fasting today!

Boysmomma · 26/07/2018 10:18

Yesterday went well, kitchen closed at 629. I wasn't hungry, but I craved so much sweet things it was ridiculous, mainly crisps, oh what I wouldn't give to have a big giant bag of crisps!

I'm holding out on sugar until my body gets used to not having it. I may be taking on too much Wink

Thanks 43 I'll show him those tonight, the boys were with their dad last night so I had a great nights sleep and got to do the loop around the village (about 10k) so that was fun! tonight's exercise will consist of dropping and picking up footballs, scrubbing who knows what off the floor, stopping and starting so that a short 10min stroll takes approx 1 hour (youngest is 18months). But I'm moving so fuckit Grin

I also woke up late and missed breakfast, at work now but I gave a beautiful lunch ready to go, the water is flowing

dovegrey18 · 26/07/2018 11:39

Bad start in that I haven't drank any fluids yet Blush I've felt hungry but I

dovegrey18 · 26/07/2018 11:40

Oops didn't mean to press send.

I skipped breakfast and going to have a small 'lunch' of 1 weetobix. Dinner is daal and chapati (home cooked)

BigChocFrenzy · 26/07/2018 12:31

Everyone: DRINK WATER
Especially in this heat
dove - I'm watching you via my 5:2 drone Wink fill a glass and glug it down

OP posts:
Stircrazyschoolmum · 26/07/2018 13:05

Eek! ( Furiously gulps water and looks out patio doors for drone activity 🤣)

Dove and BCF I’m with you on the fast today. After last nights naughtiness I’ve not let a morsel past my lips. Drinking lots of fluids though.. honest!

Well done Boys on surviving your first fast, glad it wasn’t too painful. Thanks for the pep talk quacking.. I’m going to have to accept I’m merely mortal! 43 and mrs badger I find husbands that bring home bottles of wine mid week really unhelpful! 🤣

Have a lovely holiday Mr and Mrs Badger make sure you have a few treats as that’s what holidays are for!

dovegrey18 · 26/07/2018 13:38

I'm drinking away 😀 however I think I may move my Fd to tomorrow a) because I skipped breakfast and think I'll struggle with a very small lunch (after months of 3 meals a day) b) I never drank any water all morning because I didn't have any dilute at work (since pregnancy I struggle with plain water) c) TOTM is due and I've got a hormonal headache

I have dilute now and think I'll manage tomorrow

Tomorrow I shall be better prepared.

Crashbumpthud · 26/07/2018 14:10

slinks back sheepishly

Hi all. 1st FD here after a prolonged break of 2 weeks. Have eaten too much on holiday, and really feeling it. I'm easing myself in with an 800cal FD.

I'm really struggling with knowing how much I weigh, I have put on 1.5 stone in 14 months and nothing in my wardrobe fits/ looks right. Sad
I feel like lots of people have noticed but are being too polite to say anything, yet I can't seem to stop eating rubbish food. Any tips?

BUT

I'm inspired by all of you - what great losses! Here's to trying again! Xx

BigChocFrenzy · 26/07/2018 18:51

Good job on the water, stircrazy < drone hovering Wink >

welcome back, crash

In the last 14 months, have you changed meds or developed any conditions that you are aware of ?

If not and you think the gain was caused by over-eating & drinking, then I suggest:

  • Work on developing the 5:2 healthy habits every day, especially no snacking and NHS alcohol limits
  • Increase the number of portions of non-starchy veg - aim for half the plate at lunch & supper
  • What works for some folk who have been over-indulging, is to mfp everything, at least for a normal week. Use mfp to train yourself to eat within TDEE It will highlight if the problem is portion size, alcohol, other treats; also shows the amount of sugar.
  • Have you changed diet - types of food & drink e.g. eating more sugary food, snacks, processed carbs; eating less protein ?
  • Have lifestyle changes meant that you dropped exercise ?
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