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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 79: We’re avoiding POO CRUMBS on communal cake & biscuits and enjoying our meals instead

972 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2018 11:09

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
(optional) Guide Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
DropZoneOne · 21/07/2018 13:39

BigChoc the aim is for my summer clothes to fit and my belly to wobble less. I've lost 5cms from my waist and hips in a month so I know it's working, but all the apps are geared to weight so it's hard to ignore that bit!

BigChocFrenzy · 21/07/2018 17:01

Congrats on losing 5 cm, that's excellent - all lost bodyfat
I'd dump the Apps if they don't praise that: waist is far more important for health and for shape too

OP posts:
Stircrazyschoolmum · 22/07/2018 09:54

Hi All

Having a super lazy Sunday here. Haven’t eaten yet but haven’t moved out of bed either!!!

Big Choc and Quackers.. thank you for reminding me to weigh myself! I’ll do that in a minute. I need all the motivation I can get.. Someone took a full length profile pic of me unawares yest and I was quite honestly horrified at how out of shape I looked.

So far it’s going ok. Tbh I’ve found the FDs easier than the NFDs as I can follow strict rules, whereas on I’m worried Im going to over compensate on a NFD and blow all my good work. The thing is I want this to be sustainable long term so I need to relax a bit and not treat it like a marathon rather than a sprint.

Is anyone else on a FD tomorrow? Not sure if it will be easier or harder with the kids home! (Harder I expect!) Confused

Borris · 22/07/2018 10:17

Morning fasters. Day 2 of b2b. Yesterday went ok as was so busy at work I don’t think I hit anywhere near 650 cals as literally ate 3 veg sausages, beetroot an apple and orange. If it had been a NFD I’d have stuffed my face on biscuits

quackingduck222 · 22/07/2018 10:35

Blimey Borris a weekend B2B. That is amazing how are you getting on? Are you vegetarian?

NewYork 11 days and 6lbs is fantastic. Go you. I would hold off buying a new outfit for a bit as you can loose quite a few inches in that time.

DropZone - I see you’ve taken your starting measurements so that’s good. Some weeks you may find yourself STS on the scales but that’s when you need to get your measuring tape out as you may well find you’ve lost inches. To put it into perspective a dress size is two inches.

StirCrazy - I would say your motivation is right there with that photo. I had the same thing before I started this WOL we didn’t have any full length mirrors in the house and someone uploaded a full length picture of me on FB. I’d already lost a bit of weight but that was my turning point to get it together.
It is definitely a marathon rather than a sprint. If you can make small tweaks to your food here and there they will become the new “normal” IYSWIM that forms the bigger picture overall.
A few of mine have been switching from mash to carrot and swede mash, rice to cauli rice, chips to carrot fires.
You will be in good hands tomorrow as lots of posters fast on a Monday.

Is anyone fasting today? I’m going to aim for a mini I think.

Stircrazyschoolmum · 22/07/2018 10:46

That’s sage advice quacking.. perhaps I’ll download that pic and blow it up! Really must get out of bed.. kids gorging on screen time!

Borris, a b2b on the weekend sounds hardcore!!

BigChocFrenzy · 22/07/2018 12:06

stircrazy The past was a different country; you did things differently then.
This is a new beginning.

On NFDs, roughly plan in advance - don't calorie count - 3 or 4 meals
plan lots of veg, add some protein, then optionally anything else.

To make weight management sustainable lifelong,
make the 5:2 healthy habits your lifetime WOL:

  • No snacking / grazing between meals - make this #1 priority to change Have fruit, nuts also lattes, alcohol, crisps, cake, other treats only as part of a meal
  • Keep NHS alcohol limits
  • Be sensible about sweet treats - aim for say one moderate portion on no more than 3 NFDs. You can relax on this at Xmas
  • Cut right back on flavoured fizzy drinks, even diet ones
  • Drink lots of water
  • Boost veg, also beans, peas & lentils which help blood sugar control and increase fibre for satiety
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 22/07/2018 12:07

If you've a lot to lose, then loss is usually quite rapid the first couple of months

OP posts:
Borris · 22/07/2018 12:21

I know quacking I’m hardcore Grin. I have visitors coming tomorrow so moved my FD forwards from mon-tues cos I want to be able to eat normally with them. And I’m working this weekend so it was never going to be a fun one. I’m not veggie but was at a bbq and veggie sausages had so fewer calories I went for them. I’m not a fan tbh but needs must!

BigChocFrenzy · 22/07/2018 14:01

Good for you, Borris
Just have a mindful week, to keep the win of this b2b

OP posts:
Borris · 22/07/2018 15:39

I was thinking doing a mini FD mid week as otherwise I’ve got 7 consecutive NFDs which, mindful or not, probably won’t do md any favours.

Also planning on skipping breakfast all week

quackingduck222 · 22/07/2018 15:58

Borris - well in that case can I introduce to you turkey sausages? I love the caramilised onion ones from Asda they are beautiful and lower in cals and carbs compared to normal sausages. You find them in the turkey section rather than the sausage section.

Borris · 22/07/2018 16:08

Ooh yes please quacking. They sound lovely. I love caramelised onion. I’m going to finish off the veggie sausages tonight but then I’ll go and hunt them down 😋

HonkyWonkWoman · 22/07/2018 20:04

Hi All, I'm back from hols and intend to get right back to 5/2.
First Fd will be Tuesday.
I have shopped today for all my veg for my Chunky Veg Soup and Turkey mince, two of my staples.
Will catch up with the thread tomorrow. 👋

BigChocFrenzy · 22/07/2018 20:39

Welcome back, honky and I hope your vaction was a lovely break

OP posts:
Stircrazyschoolmum · 23/07/2018 09:23

Morning all

FD here. Tummy is rumbling a bit but I’m sticking to green tea until later. Kids dropped at summer camp, will take dog for walk in a min as a distraction.

Big Choc, I’d happily be in a foreign county right now.. I’m far too hot!! I find not snacking pretty easy (phew!) and I’m not a massive pudding person. It’s booze plain and simple that’s gotten me round the tummy.. oh, and cheese and crisps and bread!!

I’m a kg down in a week which is encouraging but i’ll do the measurements today whilst the kids are out as my real goal is to lose inches and fit back into my old clothes again!

Who else is fasting today? xx

quackingduck222 · 23/07/2018 10:26

Borris - well done on your B2B. It’s really good that you’ve named head and moved your FDs so you can enjoy your NFDs.
Hopefully Borris you will love them and you will be converted. None of my lot have noticed there not pork.

HonkyWonk- did you have a lovely holiday? Good for you for getting back on it so quickly.

StirCrazy - if it’s booze your after can you try out some non alcoholic alternatives? You know like the really fancy drinks they sell now a days in a nice glass and some ice? I used to have fruity ciders quite a lot but am pretty much tee total these days but found I like sparkling fruity water.
Congratulations on your loss this week great stuff.

I had quite a unexpected good day yesterday was planning a couple of miles on the Tredmill but managed 5.5 Miles. My weights slightly over where I would like it to be but as long as I don’t gain anymore that’s ok with me.

Good luck to everyone fasting today

HonkyWonkWoman · 23/07/2018 11:24

Yes holiday was great thanks quacking, haven't weighed as Dd still "borrowing" my scales but I'm sure I've gained a bit.
I've brought forward my Fd to today as meeting friend for lunch tomorrow.
So, decided to save 500 for one meal tonight and drink green tea and Bovril till then. 😇. Good luck Fellow Fasters!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 23/07/2018 11:31

Morning everyone.... back to civilisation and unfortunately work after my camping weekend... lots of fab SVs stir crumbs new york and whoever else I missed. Wow borris a weekend b2b, that is awesome Grin

welcome back from your hols hockney and honky hope you had a wonderful break.

plus i weighed in on friday and STS also, 2nd week in a row Sad i think I am having a bit of a plateau as I've tended to stall at this weight in the past, but also I ideally want to lose another stone so need to kick start the losses again. any suggestions bcf? I've worked out that I'm still averaging just over 1 lb a week loss (24 lbs in 21 weeks) but for my motivation to continue I need to see the scales moving.

Camping was great ..... but awful in terms of calories consumed, so I'm most probably going to have gained or STS again this week, but i really do need to get this stone off - should I try 4:3 or is that too much yet??

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 23/07/2018 11:32

well done on your extra exercise quacking

HonkyWonkWoman · 23/07/2018 12:01

Yes, holiday was great thanks Fortythree! Back to 5/2ing again now though!
You've done amazingly in 21weeks, you must see a great difference in yourself with 24lbs loss.
I seem to remember bcf talking about plateaus a while ago and they seem to happen at a fixed weight for some people. Body recalibrating itself as far as I remember and advice was to carry on through it 5/2ing until you got a breakthrough. So keep going!

BigChocFrenzy · 23/07/2018 12:17

Yup, plateau are typically at weights where you have stayed a long time in the past and also stuck on previous diets.
these are "set points" at which your body resists further fat-burning

Have at least a week on mfp and keep on with the 5:2 healthy habits - NO snacks, NHS alcohol limits, moderate treats, lots of water - adding a check that you are within TDEE

If you haven't been keep to those habits, then revert to those before trying anything new.

If you sts even after that and you know you are within TDEE, then for at least 2 weeks, just to break through, tr
5:2 bootcamp:

  • 4:3 - and make the FDs 500 cals
  • All the above healthy habits
  • Dry - NO alcohol whatsoever
  • No sweet treats whatsoever
  • No flavoured fizzy drinks whatsoever - fizzy water is ok, but not even diet fizz
OP posts:
Borris · 23/07/2018 12:29

I’m down from last week but still not back to pre weekend away low. But is totm so putting down to that. And I do feel slimmer jeans wise and that’s the main goal.

Good luck Monday fasters. Feels odd not fasting today! I still skipped breakfast though

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 23/07/2018 12:48

Thanks honky and BCF I will try that and see how I get on this week - I have previously been this weight for a number of years - humpppffff - so it is a set point.

I have been mfp-ing but obviously I've had a weekend away where I haven't and know I will have gone over TDEE, so will bear that in mind also..

Cheers Flowers

petrolpump28 · 23/07/2018 12:54

its weird that set point thing isnt it? I used to have my " Christmas weight " which stuck for years. If I tried I could batter it down half a stone.

Then after baby ( 22 years ago) another set point appeared. After generally losing the plot, another one. Its an odd process.