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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 79: We’re avoiding POO CRUMBS on communal cake & biscuits and enjoying our meals instead

972 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2018 11:09

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
(optional) Guide Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
cheddarmonster · 19/07/2018 12:52

Thanks for the suggestions BigChoc.
I must admit I'm generally quite good on my NFDs (though no angel of course). I always break my FD with a good low GI breakfast. Anyway, I'll keep my eye on this - it could be overdoing carbs maybe or too much of something. I'll experiment with a few things after my holiday.
Thanks again

Borris · 19/07/2018 13:42

Why does this happen? I woke up from FD this morning not feeling hungry. But had breakfast with dd (sugar free alpen). By 11.30 I was feeling really hungry. But yesterday on FD I didn’t really feel hungry until 12.30 having had no breakfast Confused

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 19/07/2018 13:49

borris i never now have breakfast at all, I find I just don't need it and on the odd occasion when I have (if i'm away and at a hotel etc) then I am more hungry throughout the day and eat more... its almost as if it piques my appetite

I'm off to London in a few weeks and have breakfast paid for so I'm going to try and have breakfast but skip lunch, will be interesting to see how I cope Grin

Welcome stir and good luck with 5:2, keep posting here, ask lots of questions, loads of people with amazing advice and support to give Smile

Just had lunch and couldn't resist the potato salad, I'm guessing about 550 for the whole salad, so will have a very light dinner and will hopefully be in under 1000

BigChocFrenzy · 19/07/2018 17:09

Welcome, stircrazy Smile

OP posts:
plus3 · 19/07/2018 17:48

So ....tried the marmite as a drink ...[vomit face]

plus3 · 19/07/2018 18:25

But it has shifted my headache Confused

BigChocFrenzy · 19/07/2018 19:13

plus Forget the drink. Just regard it as medicine and glug down the teasp neat.
I learned to enjoy my FD Marmite, slowly licking the spoon clean

OP posts:
Borris · 19/07/2018 20:14

I love marmite so it’s a fast day treat for me. Sometimes have it on a NFD if I feel a bit ‘snacky’

plus3 · 19/07/2018 20:29

I thought I loved Marmite ...turns out not in drink form, but rather swirled lovingly into hot buttered toast ...
Maybe I will try a spoon next week.

Still ...I have a nice peppermint tea to see me through to bedtime. A good FD though - kitchen closed at 468cals. Official weigh day tomorrow!!!!

badger82 · 19/07/2018 21:11

Borris I had a bad day too...I was fully expecting my scales to say 63 something or at most 64 something but they said 66 :(
Feels a little unfair with sustained effort but I've fallen off the MFP wagon a bit the last week and I'm not stable enough to just freestyle on my NFDs yet. But will regroup and power through, this weekend may be tricky as glamping but determined to be 64 something before hols next week!!!!

Iamblossom · 19/07/2018 21:27

FWIW I mfp religiously every day.

I feel a little sad that I do this tbh, as I feel in the grip of the routine of it but that is more down to my personality than a real need I think.

I use this thread as a forum to discus the minutiae of what I eat and what I weigh because I don't allow myself to bore anyone in real life with such self indulgent material. I figure if people are here posting about the same things as me it is fair game and I have permission.

It keeps me honest to record what I consume drinks and foods wise and it appears to be working as I am successfully maintaining at between 8 stone 8 and 8 stone 10. But I do feel a bit of a slave to it.

Borris · 19/07/2018 21:42

badger maybe it’ll be our week next week! I do remember quacking I thinks weight graph which was quite variable week to week but with a gradual decline overall. I think it’s important not to fall off the wagon now. I have eaten a kitkat after dinner but I’m telling myself no cakes or biscuits at all tomorrow and no wine in the evening.

blossom I’m nog keen to do regular mfp if I can help it. I lost a massive amount of weight 4 years or so ago using mfp but it became obsessive and unhealthy. Eg I only ate ready prepared food that I could scan the bar code onShock. And so when I stopped using it the weight came back as I hadn’t really learned healthy habits.

This time I’m in a much better place and the support here is great.

Having said that blossom being 9 stone something would be amazing, let alone 8 something Smile

HLBug · 19/07/2018 23:26

blossom I'm with you on MFP - I've just accepted it as part of my daily life admin. Like checking Facebook or Mumsnet or BBC News or Fitbit. It's just something else I regularly do everyday. I don't have a problem with it - if I do choose not to log then I end up trying to work it out in my head anyway, which is sometimes worse. I am also happily maintaining between 8st 8lb and 8st 12lb. I'd rather log and weigh in regularly than throw all my hard work away.

Iamblossom · 20/07/2018 07:45

@HLBug yes we are very similar! You describe it much better than me. Daily admin. Yup! Smile

Iamblossom · 20/07/2018 07:51

SIL is a classic example of someone in complete denial about how much food she consumes.

Out for lunch recently she ordered a goats cheese tart starter and no main as she "wasn't that hungry". I ordered a platter usually for sharing for two just for myself as I liked everything on it.

It came as a mass of roasted peppers aubergine, and other veg a bowl of boiled potatoes, some polenta chips, olives, a small crusty loaf of bread sliced up, hummus, dips, salad leaves, feta cheese vol au vents type things etc. Absolutely delicious. I ate all the veg, all the salad, a couple of potatoes, a couple of the polenta things, all the olives, left the feta things and bread.

She polished off everything I left.

And was insistent she had only eaten a starter.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/07/2018 08:09

Morning all
I'm fasting, anyone else ?
I'm saving most calories until restaurant supper of salmon fillet & big salad
I haven't even looked at the oven for weeks, way too hot

Another 30C day here, phew
Looking out my French windows, the Rhine is bathed in sunshine and looks glorious, but I know it's already sweltering and will soon be scorching.
I've been in shorts & T since late April
Can't wait until my weekend walks !

OP posts:
petrolpump28 · 20/07/2018 08:10

blossom, I will never see a number 8 on the scales and would be delighted to see a 9. Maybe ease up a bit on yourself?

quackingduck222 · 20/07/2018 08:17

43 - hope you had a lovely lunch out with your friend.

Plus 3 - well done on your losses 11lbs is fantastic.

Petrol- I don’t think everyone on here calorie counts but it takes the guess work out. It’s so easy to do. Plus you learn a lot doing it. I expect most posters would still loose in the beginning without but we have our TDEEs if you haven’t use the calculator in the opening post. Speaking for myself here but prior to 5:2 I was massively overeating without some restriction on calories on a NFD there is no way I could of lost weight but small tweaks here and there combined with the 5:2 was a powerful combination.

I think your goal is very sensible, it’s a marathon not a sprint but we are building new habits for our new future.

Welcome StirCrazy, when’s your first FD?
Good luck.

Cheddar - do you use MFP? Yes definitely start having a play with what your doing after your holiday and see what works for you.

Borris - I was the exact same as you, I no longer eat breakfast as for me it doesn’t set me up for the day what it actually does is make me want to eat everything in sight.

Badger - that’s the spirit. Sometimes these blips happen for no reason but on the flip side sometimes we can go off track a bit and either stay the same or just gain a little bit. Try MFP again next week and good luck.

Wow everyone seems to be going on holiday it’s going to be very quiet on here soon.

Blossom- me too, I still track everything. For me I think it’s the fear of the unknown calorie content. I’ve had MFP on my phone for 8-9 years but up until 5:2 never used it. I don’t discuss it in RL either but I have noticed a lot of people asking recently what I’m doing and I think that’s due to maintaining the loss.

Borris - definitely those graphs will have blips in them. We can’t be perfect all the time.

I had a good FD yesterday was ready to eat my own arm at 4pm but held out until 6 by keeping busy. I just realized I’ve eaten out twice this week and FD has undone that and taken a little extra with it.

Good luck to any fasters for today

OnePotato2Potato · 20/07/2018 08:26

Hi All,

I'm really interested in starting the 5:2 diet as I think it will help lose weight but in a "gentle" way if that's possible!

I've been reading some threads on 5:2 which are great but there's a couple of things I would like to check. On FD, the 800 cals, how should they be consumed? In 2 meals or more...? Is there a time frame I should eat within? Also, as it's calories rather than fat that is limited, should I still go for "high fat low carbs"?

Thnks for clarifying!

plus3 · 20/07/2018 08:29

Morning ....weigh day = 11st 13lb. Same as last week. Sigh.
11.10 is the stone off which I really want to get to & my ultimate goal is 10.7 ....it feels miles away.
I wonder if I should space the FD out a bit? Currently do Tuesday & Thursdays.
But to echo everyone...my better weeks were when I MFP’d everyday.
Borris I do agree ...it is about changing for life the way we eat

BigChocFrenzy · 20/07/2018 08:51

blossom Keep posting; it's encouraging for most, to see the end result

petrol I know the start of the journey can seem daunting, but everyone posts what they want about their lives
It helps, because noone in rl wants to hear details about someone else's weight or food intake,
but here it helps.

5:2ers post their joys, problems and all life between
Many have reached the 8st or 9st somethings, after having been overweight for years
Some reached goal after starting at BMI 35+, 40+ at the end of their tether.

It may take a lot of patience, but you can get where you want

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 20/07/2018 09:00

Welcome, onepotato Smile
The OP has all you need to know, especially the "How to Start" section

FDs are in fact 500 calorie days, but 800 calories can also work for those with high TDEE:
men, women who are tall, high starting weight, lots of gym ...

All that is "banned" on FDs are alcohol and junk, especially sugary junk
Otherwise, aim to eat reasonably nutritious food, at times that suit you

In practice, to avoid hunger, most people find:

  • Don't graze on FDs; eat 1-3 meals, nothing between Most folk have black coffee / tea for breakfast, then only lunch + supper, or just supper
  • High carb often increases hunger, because it spikes insulin, so most folk go lower carb on FDs
  • Base meals on plenty of veg, with adequate protein - protein helps reduce hunger - and optionally a small portion of carbs Good choices always have lots of veg: protein + salad, stirfry, curries (small rice), stews
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 20/07/2018 09:09

plus A small loss can easily be disguised by water swings, undigested food etc
So, it could be a blip
The average longterm loss is 1lb weekly, but for those with lowish TDEE it could be less, ⅔ lb.

If the trend over a few weeks averages out at about this, then chill.
It's the rate that your individual body can manage

If it's much below this, then work on your NFDs,
because you are probably eating back the FD deficit
If mfp helped in the past, it suggests you need to use that to permanently retrain your eating / drinking habits, before you can give it up

Your old eating produced your old weight, which is why you can't return to eating & drinking that old way

Changed spacing of FDs is only important if it helps you have better NFDs

Do you keep the 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs ? - No snacking, NHS alcohol limits, sensible about treats, lots of water

OP posts:
Hockneypool · 20/07/2018 09:12

Morning all, back after a few weeks away. Had a brilliant holiday in France - very healthy eating with lots of salads and veg. Three meals a day no snacks but a few treats with meals. We also did loads of cycling. Feel so much better and a wee bit lighter too!

Second fast day this week today. sticking with water and coffee this morning.

Lovely to hear everyone’s stories.

BCF like the idea that with patience we can get to where we want, and we are all going somewhere different albeit a lighter healthier place.

petrolpump28 · 20/07/2018 09:15

Yes it seems daunting and complicated and I'm not great at/interested in recording things and using technology. I can see that you guys here are very helpful so that encourages me.