5:2 Thread No. 79: We’re avoiding POO CRUMBS on communal cake & biscuits and enjoying our meals instead

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
(optional) Guide Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

naughty. Doggy still exists and actually I still pay for all but food, but sadly she lives with stbxh

wow cheddar well done on your loss so far

Just starting to get a rumbly belly so off for a pint of water! early FD dinner for me today I think

Kitchen closed at 750 calories

Well done bug

Kitchen closed here on 509 contemplating a mini fd tomorrow, will see how I feel

borris how did you get on with your fd?

I’m done at about 500 too. Planning b2b on sat and sun as can’t really manage any FDs next week. Was thinking of 500 sat and 800 sun as my guests arrive sun night so would be able to do some grilled steak and veg and new potatoes for us all. Just no wine for me

Well done on your SV, pop
Great progress and so near to that healthy BMI milestone
Many 5:2ers started with modest goals and then realised they could comfortably go further and achieve goals they had previously thought beyond reach.
Sometimes 5:2 hits the fat that other diets don't tough

plus I glug the teasp Marmite neat, i.e. just lick the spoon until it's finished
Aternatively mix with hot water for a drink.
Whichever you prefer

petrol Do try to avoid eating in the middle of the night, FDs or NFDs, because it stops dead the overnight fast
Especially on FDs because
An FD is actually about 36 hrs = a sleep + the day + a sleep

cheddar Low carb / keto flu is something that happens the first week
No, what you describe hasn't been reported by othewrs.

Possible reasons:

• On the NFD, are you breaking your fast with a nutritous low GI meal ? If you are having sugary breakfast cereal and / or fruit juice, swap to e.g. porridge or pnut butter on wholemeal toast etc
• Are you eating junk later, or drinking alcohol ? On that 1st NFD, cut out junk and just keep to one small glass wine total
• if you have only 1 FD netween NFDs, that may be a bit stressful for your individual bod. Can you move FD2 so you always have at least 2 NFDs between fasts ?

duck As with wheat bread, check on the label that rye bread is 100% wholemeal or wholegrain (same thing)
If it doesn't say that, then the "normal" is more highly processed, which you don't want, as that means lots of good nutrients & fibre removed.

Misleading labels:
Check the small print
Wholemeal / wholegrain may be in big letters on the wrapper, but that may just mean 50% of the flour.
So check on the label that the ingredients state wholemeal / wholegrain flour and are not followed by wheat flour or rye flour without the adjective.

Sounds a good plan for a busy week, Borris
A weekend b2b normally brings the greatest benefit, but is not always 1st choice somehow

I don’t think I’ll be making a habit of weekend b2b bcf but needs must. And I am actually working all this weekend and I do find FDs easier at work

honestly, I was genuinely hungry and didnt sleep well. Maybe I need to rearrange timings.

Up 0.8kg. I know I need to assume it’s a blip etc etc. But it feels like the losses only come if I really restrict myself on NFDs too- which might be any other diet really.

I’m not giving up but equally I’m not too optimistic about the next month with holidays etc

Crumbs - I hope your FD went well.

Hey Bug, how’s it going?

Pop - congratulations 1.5 stone, wow well done. Good job having the goals as it’s something to aim for. I wouldn’t rule out your super goal as quite a few of us have got down to our original targets and changed them lower again. Probably wouldn’t be possible or sustainable on any other diet but on this it is. Just see how you feel once your there.

Cheddar- I hope you have a fantastic holiday and do have some nice things when your away. It’s important to enjoy yourself but you know any damage done can be undone pretty quick with a good FD and a good poop under your belt.

Badger hope your B2B is going well for you.
Hope you have a fantastic holiday too.

Naughty - that’s great your going to try and drink some more it really does seem to help.

Borris - your weekend sounds like a great plan.

BCF - I’m all confused over my bread now. I will add a pic of the labels. They seem to have rebranded and it’s really confusing what ones the one I used to have.

Petrol - when did you eat yesterday and what did you have?

Thursday FD here. Will try and get out for a run and some weights.

Good luck to all the fasters and B2Bers today.

borris it is just a blip, but yes very disheartening especially if you have to restrict on nfd's also... I can totally understand how demotivating it is. Is it totm? Have you been drinking enough?

Going to go for a mini-fd today, on the same basis as you borris that this weekend is going to be difficult when camping so I'm trying to do some damage limitation now.

Hope thurs fasters have a good day

Morning! FD again ...will try the marmite (as a drink ...) as do often end up with a headache at the end of the day.

Borris do you use My Fitness Pal to log your NFD calories? It is really useful just to see where the extra Cals are coming from. Every successful weight loss program relies on you eating less calories than your body requires - fasting does this (plus the extra health benefits which I am particularly interested in - reduced inflammation for example) but with no other faddy restrictions

I ate 1867 yesterday, of which 248 came from snacking chocolate so whilst not terrible, only 100 came from something I intended to eat, 2 biscuits just happened !!

For me, 5:2 is gradually changing how I eat - my appetite is getting smaller & I am not looking to graze quite as often as I used to. But it is taking a while - I started at the end of April & have lost 11lbs & definitely have days where it all feels a bit too hard. But I feel so much better, even with just those 11lbs off.
Keep going - it will work

meeting a friend for lunch today and they do lovely salads - bed of lettuce leaves, toms, cucumber, peppers and then you choose potato salad or bean salad (i opt for potato) and olives or sun-dried toms (olives) and a cooked chicken breast - any ideas on calories? Olives are about 8, so that's fine, but potato salad is about a large spoonful, so possibly 100g? eek - maybe i wont be managing a mini-fd today after all!! but i'm guessing this is still a better option calorie wise than a jacket spud with topping and side salad?

Forty that sounds lovely - could you just not have the potato or beans & ask for extra toms/cucumber?

hmmm plus I could do although the potato salad is amazing, but yes, that would be the sensible thing to do now why didn't i think of that, oh I know, because i'm a greedy mare

11lbs is a great loss also since April

Borris NFDs should be maintenance days
Eat on other diets as you do 5 days per week on 5:2 and you won't lose
NFDs are not "all you can eat" days though

forty say 350 for potato salad, really enjoy it and don’t eat much else today?

Thank you plus and 43 I know you’re right that if I want to lose weight I need to eat less! I suppose because I’m definitely not eating and more than pre diet on NFD I was hoping that would be enough. I do think alcohol is partly to
Blame. I don’t know if it’s just calories or whether it’s metabolic too. And I think maybe I need to limit ice creams on holiday- I could easily eat one a day whilst away.

I think totm is brewing so that might be a factor and I deffo don’t drink enough water so that’s something I can work on. In fact I’ll buy some more sparkling water today as found that much more appealing.
Hopefully I’ll be winning again by next week.
I guess if losing was easy there wouldn’t be an obesity epidemic would there!

plus 350 just for the potato salad - yikes!!!!

borris enjoy your holiday, why not skip breakfast or lunch and then you could have that ice cream everyday if that is what you really want? It is so hard but you can do this, set your next fd for when you are back from holiday and maybe mfp that first week to make sure yu are within tdee, good luck, you will be winning again soon :)

sorry, this just seems like old school calorie counting with 2 very low calorie days thrown in?
Anyhow, I will give it a fair go and see.

petrol It is basically 5 maintenance days, plus 2 diet days
Those who need to count on NFDs are those who, over many years, have got used to eating & drinking way more than their body can burn.
That's how they became overweight, so they need to retrain their "normal" eating.

Many other folk though can lose on 5:2 without counting.
I suggest you try that for the first 2 weeks, especially if you have a lot to lose

However, there is no magic about weight loss - it really is about obtaining a sustantial calorie deficit, whether every day of the week, or just on 2 days

The advantage of FDs is that they are low enough to force the body to burn fat:
many folk on daily diets find their bodies can compensate for a small daily deficit, so they don't lose

thanks. I think one advantage seems to be it stops obsessing and is simple to do.
Would like to lose a stone. I know some people have a much bigger mountain to climb, but this has been with me for a long time, plus being "older" I look terrible in my face if I lose weight suddenly.
Im thinking by Christmas half a stone. Maybe that seems kinda pathetic but I could quite easily pile on loads.

forty that was an over estimation !!

Petrol I don’t calorie count everyday, but as BCF states I have got used to eating more than I need. MFP is useful in showing where those extra calories are coming from - for me it tends to be that extra glass of wine or mindless nibbling early evening.

Hello!

Taking a deep breath and coming to join you! The 5:2 diet is something I was originally quite cynical about but over the past couple of years I’ve seen sensible friends achieve great things with it.. and most importantly stick to it!

I am 8 kg from where I would like to be (any reduction would be good tbh..) today is my second fast day and I’m feeling pretty motivated. I’d love to go back to the school gate in Sept 2 dress sizes slimmer!

Looking forward to getting to know everyone better. The recipe thread is a godsend. 😋