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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 79: We’re avoiding POO CRUMBS on communal cake & biscuits and enjoying our meals instead

972 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2018 11:09

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
(optional) Guide Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2018 21:56

Well done, Tuesday fasters !
Time to close the kitchen, clean your teeth and why not an early night

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 17/07/2018 22:09

Evening everyone and welcome all the newbies. ...

Nfd okay today although think I miscalculated dinner so might actually be over be a couple hundred, I'm not worried as planning mini-fd Thurs.

Fd number 2 tomorrow, no breakfast then chicken salad for lunch and omelette for dinner, maybe a sugar free jelly for pud. Who else is on the weds fast train with me Grin

newyorklover1 · 17/07/2018 22:35

My third fast day done and I found today harder - not through lack of willpower or motivation just that my body was struggling. Had physical symptoms of shaking feeling very weak and light headed.

I'm not sure if today's food is what made the difference, I had 4 eggs and some white fish and veg.

On previous fast days I've eaten more veg. Any tips on how I can avoid that feeling again? I tried spacing the eggs out through the day but it didn't help. I think I only managed to 600 calories today instead of 500 but think I may have fell over if I hadn't eaten the extra 100.

Naughtysausage · 17/07/2018 23:19

Hello to all the new posters!

Newyork do you like marmite? A tea spoon of that helps avoid the shaky feelings.

I've done day 1 of b2b today. Kitchen closed several hours ago on 600.

Generally feeling a bit sad, I'm letting NFD's rage out of control a bit and I'm maintaining just over 3lbs heavier than my previous low. I think it's also because with the heat I've stopped running so my activity level has dropped. Which I feel so guilty about, but apparently not enough to actually do something about it. I am FULL of excuses. I just need a motivational kick up the bum.

Borris · 17/07/2018 23:37

43 I’m joining you on the weds fast train Smile. I’m saving most my calories for dinner as I have dd from weds onwards and I don’t want her to see me fasting. So
Jacket pots with salad, cottage cheese (me) and butter and real cheese (dd)

Borris · 17/07/2018 23:37

Naughty. I need to start running again. I no longer have a dog and running without one seems pointless!

BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2018 23:41

Yup, newyork Glug a teasp of Marmite (10 cals) mid-morning and mid-afternoon.
It replenishes salt & other minerals that can be low while your body is adapting to fasting
(low salt levels in particular are what can cause headaches or feelings of weakness in the early stages of this WOE)

Do try to add more veg though, of different kinds; you don't need all that protein - 4 eggs and fish too
Try a 2-egg veggy omelette with a small side salad of raw veg
then for your other meal, have your fish with say a big mixed salad, or stirfried with veg

OP posts:
quackingduck222 · 18/07/2018 08:16

43 - Sounds like you’ve planned your weekend really well. I hope you have a lovely trip away.

Blossom well done on your SV.

No idea - ooh stone breaker. That’s fantastic. Yes just get on plan when you get back. And enjoy your self.

Plus3 - I hope your FD went well.

NewYork - entirely up to you. Some
Of us pick a day of the week usually the day we started. Others pick the 2nd FD, others weigh daily like me. If you do weigh daily you will see every blip and fluctuation and that can mess with your mind. If you do that it’s best to record your losses weekly. There are some free apps out there that track your progress with a graph.

Pop - make sure you let us know how you get on tomorrow.

DesperatelySeeking - welcome, can you try menu planning ahead of a FD using MFP in advanced? You won’t have to think about food then?

43 - I hope your fast goes well today.

NewYork - of you need the extra calories go for it. Some days we just need a bit more. Your still early days but you will get used to it I promise. It’s worth keeping something on hand that you can quickly grab if needed I always have ham in the fridge that I can grab if I feel a bit like you describe. Have you been drinking enough? You do need lots of water especially so in this weather.

Naughty- I’ve been struggling with running in this heat also could you try some power walking instead? This may sound silly but last week I had a email from the race organizer for my Sunday run with weather warning they suggested we drink more water in the week leading up to it. I drink a lot anyway but I stepped it right up last week and ended up with a fantastic loss despite being way over TDEE every day. Can you try drinking some more?

Borris good luck for your FD.

BCF - I was thinking of you yesterday when I bought some Rye bread. Yum, I noticed they now have two versions normal and wholemeal Rye I chose whole meal do you know what the difference is?

petrolpump28 · 18/07/2018 08:52

I had to get up at 1 am and eat a banana....hungry.

crumbseverywhere · 18/07/2018 09:42

FD today for me too. Working a long day so will hopefully be distracted.

Taken on the protein advice and having a baked cod and boiled egg salad with grilled courgette and a 0cal paprika dressing split between lunch and dinner plus an apple. Milk in coffee will take me up to 500.

Good luck to the other fasters.

HLBug · 18/07/2018 09:53

Checking in from Maintenance Land for a Wednesday Fast Day Smile

Hello to the new folk and a wave over to TiP, nice to hear from you again.

PopGoesTheWeaz · 18/07/2018 09:58

Just realised today is my 3 month anniversary and scales say I've lost 1 kilo since last week. This means I've lost 1.5 stone Glitterball and am only 2 pounds off a healthy BMI. And I've passed my MFP goal. Really celebrating (mentally at least. Physically I'm just sat at work).

In retrospect, I wasn't ambitious enough - I don't like not being able to meet goals - but I have to say, at the time of setting the goal, it seemed like a real stretch for me. SOOO... in my own excel sheet tracking I have additional ultimate goal (2 stone lost), stretch goal (weight when I was at uni), and a super stretch goal. I don't think I'm read or confident enough to aim for a super stretch, but my stretch goal all the sudden seems reasonable and I would have NEVER thought that 3 months ago.

Thanks for all your support - I know I wouldn't be here without your encouragement and advice. Flowers

plus3 · 18/07/2018 10:09

Marmite ....a teaspoon in hot water or neat ??? Confused

Felt good this morning - in fact, have only just had breakfast (frothy coffee & granola with milk) so NFD with counting Cals to 1800

God luck to fasters today Grin

plus3 · 18/07/2018 10:10

Pop that is amazing - well done!!!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 18/07/2018 10:26

pop that is fantastic, well done you Flowers

crumbseverywhere · 18/07/2018 10:43

Pop that is really great, well done!

Borris · 18/07/2018 10:49

Well done pop. How motivating for you. Keep it up

Struggling with fd today. Especially as work is so quiet so the days dragging

Ta1kinpeace · 18/07/2018 11:44

plus3
Marmite in a cup of hot water - a yummy hot drink that keeps the body ticking over

cheddarmonster · 18/07/2018 11:49

Hi all - checking in for a FD, my last one before my 2.5 week break where I don't plan to fast at all, but will stick to the No snacking rules and try and eat mindfully (but enjoy a few extra things) :) I'm intrigued to see how this break will make me feel. I already have my first FD planned after my holiday (TUESDAY 7th AUGUST!)

One thing I wanted to run by all you clever lot is that I am suffering a little on the NFD between the FDs with what can only be descirbed as flu like symptoms (achey, sore throat, foggy) - nothing major but a tad annoying. I was reading about the Keto Flu but I don't know if it could be that? Anyone have any ideas? It's making me feel uneasy about my FDs.

Since April I've lost 11kg :O

PopGoesTheWeaz · 18/07/2018 12:37

cheddar you're my fasting twin then. Have a B2B planned after my break for Aug 7 too.

I've formulated a notion that if we fast too consistently, our bodies get used to it so I think (queen of justification speaking here) that having a two week break is actually going to help us :)

cheddarmonster · 18/07/2018 12:58

PopGoesTheWeaz I like that theory and hey, you might be on to something there! Better to shake things up a bit!
have a nice holiday :)

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 18/07/2018 14:04

C'mon borris we're over halfway through now, stay strong...

have a lovely holiday cheddar sounds a very sensible approach

badger82 · 18/07/2018 14:10

Checking in on day 1 of a B2B. Went to Waitrose and bought some yummy veggie stuff for my dinners and some smoked mackerel. Going to hold out until dinner tonight and so looking forward to it already.

Aiming to be 63 something by Friday! Smashed my mini goal of 64 something already so hoping to go to 63 pre hols which are next Thurs.

Borris · 18/07/2018 14:38

Thanks 43. High five! Had an egg for lunch and a naughty Diet Coke and I’m back on track.

cheddar 11kg is amazing!

badger mackerel sounds yummy.

I’d love to be 66.5 tomorrow but think that’s unlikely after my (rather enjoyable!) weekend

Naughtysausage · 18/07/2018 15:13

Quacking - whilst I'm not sure about the power walking, I am going to give drinking more water a good shot. I never drink enough. Am off for a glass now. *

Borris - sorry to hear about your pooch.

Pop - congratulations!

Plus* - I eat my marmite neat. Well, I sort of delicately luck it off the spoon. Nom.

Am on a FD today and need to get busier as I'm starting to think about food!