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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 79: We’re avoiding POO CRUMBS on communal cake & biscuits and enjoying our meals instead

972 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2018 11:09

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
(optional) Guide Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
petrolpump28 · 17/07/2018 08:35

mmmm slowly the light dawns on pump. Lets see!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 17/07/2018 08:36

Hi quacking, we are having a BBQ on friday night, so that's relatively easy enough and I'll make ahead some salads and some roasted veggies to fill up on and skip and bread, so i'll just have to try and resist all of the snacks that will come out with the wine and cider Grin saturday we will go to a pub so I will choose the healthiest option. Tbh it will just be very hard with the no snacking rule as the others we're going with and my DH (like I used to be) are big snackers! And with alcohol comes lessened willpower - eek!!!

I might do a mini-fd on thurs to compensate!

Nearly there smiled, excellent SV

Iamblossom · 17/07/2018 08:48

morning all. 8 8 this morning so my half hearted FD yesterday did the trick. It's weird how I breeze some and find others so challenging, I just felt really tired yesterday. I feel a bit headachy this morning and have a touch of the runs (sorry tmi) so wonder if it is that. I never get ill!

quacking I power walk on the treadmill in an air conditioned gym, so it could be any weather outside! I sweat bucket loads anyway...

noideawhattocallmyself · 17/07/2018 10:02

12st 13lb!! Whoop - dropped through that barrier!
Holidays soon so I guess I just need to make sure that I plan in my first FD after i get back, meanwhile pasta; pizza; ice cream...... could be a gain over the next two weeks :) :)

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 17/07/2018 11:06

that's fab noidea enjoy your holiday and get straight back onto it the first day back!

Excellent SV iam hope your stomach is better soon

plus3 · 17/07/2018 11:39

Welcome to the newbies!!
FD today - have stayed away from scales as had a family camping weekend with maybe too many beers consumed...
will not weigh again until Friday (which is after FD2) but will be amazed if am

newyorklover1 · 17/07/2018 12:00

Are we supposed to just weigh ourselves after the second weigh in?

I'm struggling to not hop on the scales every morning Confused

BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2018 13:12

Well done on your milestone SV, noidea
and welcome back to the 12 st somethings

Persis The typoes of carbs that particulary pile on weight around the middelare:
alcohol, added sugar
I recommend you

  • ditch the breakfast cereal for porridge - no instant - and check your portion size
  • Cut out fruit juice and dried fruit. Keep fruit to max 2 portions per day
  • Move to less processed carbs: wholegrains, quinoa, brown / red rice, beans, peas, lentils

NewYork Some people weigh every day, which is OK so long as you don't take it seriously and try to figure out wh
If a blip discourages you, then stick to weekly.

Most folk lose on FDs and then - even if NFDs are within TDEE - incraese slightly as their tum fills up again
So a graph of loss looks like a zig-zag function, but trending downwards

To actually understand how your weight is changing, I recommend you weigh weekly under consistent conditions and even then look at the trend over every 2-3 weeks

On any diet or none:
Wees, dumps, water retention, hormonal swings can cause weight to vary a couple of lb from day to day, or even during the same day.
totm water retention can temporarily add several lb of bloat

Inconsistent weighing methods can also affect results a few lb.

To weigh consistently:
. Reliable scales - the same ones ! Preferably digital.
. First thing in the morning, naked, after loos but before first drink of water.
. Keep scales in exactly the same place every day. Type of flooring, slight slopes etc all affect things.
. Change batteries frequently, so always full power.
. After switching on, wait 3 secs before stepping on, because the scales need to calibrate.
. Don't jump on; step slowly on so that both feet are fully on
. Don't lean to one side or to the front /back.
. Keep still until you take the reading, no fidgeting or leaning

OP posts:
PopGoesTheWeaz · 17/07/2018 13:20

Last week before two weeks of holidays. I've also stopped calorie counting during NFD in prep but staying mindful of meals and no snacking, so will be interesting what the scales say tomorrow. And then in two weeks time

Desperatelyseekingslimness · 17/07/2018 17:34

Hi. I've been lurking. Not commented before. Really want to get started as I like the idea of 5/2 but I've tried a couple of times and ended up eating too much by lunchtime and then just give in and eat whatever because I feel like I have failed. Thought maybe a bit of support would help. Smile

petrolpump28 · 17/07/2018 17:50

if a glass of wine sneaks in on a fast day am I stuffed (metaphorically)

BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2018 18:01

Change it to a Sub-TDEE NFD
Do NOT fast on alcohol

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2018 18:08

Welcome, desperate Smile
I suggest you ease in with 800 FDs for at least the first couple of weeks.
Don't worry, many folk find it takes a while to adapt to fasting, but most nail 'em in the end

FD tips:

  • Plan each FD in advance, the menu, the calories, what you eat for each meal.
  • Do NOT snack or graze. On FDs & NFDs, eat only meals
  • On FDs, NO alcohol, added sugar or other junk
  • Base each meal on lean protein, plus lots of veg, optionally a small portion starchy carbs Popular meal choices: omelette, prawn stir fry, slamon salad
  • Most folk find it easier just to have black unsugared coffee or tea for breakfast, then save their calories for lunch & supper. SO, 2 meals
OP posts:
petrolpump28 · 17/07/2018 18:35

Bigchoc, I think I understand what you are saying. But then I would have to do another FD?

Ta1kinpeace · 17/07/2018 19:03

A quick tip for those who REALLY crave something to eat but want to stick to a tight calorie budget.

Peel a carrot
eat it Bugs Bunny style

It will take you several minutes, you will be chewing for a while
and all for around 20 calories Smile
If still hungry, do it again !

Ta1kinpeace · 17/07/2018 19:06

petrolpump
The key point of 5:2 is that weight loss is a side effect, not the core goal.

If you need to ease yourself in with 800 calorie fast days rather than 500, ah well, there is always next year Grin
Get your body and mind used to the concept of no more grazing and snacking
and be willing to ease back a bit to get to the long term goal of sustainable healthy eating habits.

newyorklover1 · 17/07/2018 19:07

Thanks bigchoc that was really helpful! Smile

Desperatelyseekingslimness · 17/07/2018 19:43

Thanks for your reply. I'm going to try again tomorrow. I'm not sure how most people do it but if I have Wednesday as my weigh in day could I post my progress and maybe what I'm eating on fast days? Just it spur me on?

Sorry I have never posted on a forum before. Fight know what I'm doing!

petrolpump28 · 17/07/2018 19:48

thanks for all help folks.

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 17/07/2018 21:39

Another really yummy snack at 22 cals are the itsu seaweed crisps - I LOVE them!

plus3 · 17/07/2018 21:45

The biggest mindshift is to no snacking ...many find the NFDs harder to stick to within TDEE (ahem)

FD went well today - homemade left over veg Frittata (350cals) plus a frothy coffee (100) plus lots of water. Feeling a bit hungry so off to bed

Iamblossom · 17/07/2018 21:47

@Desperatelyseekingslimness post when you are struggling, post when you are smashing it, post when you are hungry, post when you are not, post your meal plans, post your fast day experiences, post post post.

I do. Smile

NoUnderpantsinSpace · 17/07/2018 21:50

I'm failing to keep up and now the kids are off. DS was at a party on Friday and had a blue drink - he has been wild since then Confused
DD has a cold and possibly a urine infection.... it has been a hard few days and they are driving me potty.

DH has just offered to help with all the packing.... he will pack his own clothes... oh yeah. My saviour Hmm

Hello new people!! I will hopefully be a bit less stressed once we are away and then I'll try to catch up properly.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2018 21:51

petrol Fasting is intended to start the process of hormesis (removing damaged cells to make way for new ones)
The liver, kidneys, pancreas and digestive system have a bit of a rest during FDs too
and of course fat-burning is boosted.

All this is what brings the health benefits of fasting and enables it to help some conditions like PCOS, asthma, IBS

Calories consumed on an FD should be reasonably nutritious, to provide your body with the minimu it needs for the day and not contain anything that prevents the healthy effects.
It's not just any old 500 or 800 calories - type of calories really does make a difference here.

Alcohol stops all fat-burning for hours, because the liver prioritises processing and disposing the toxic byproducts.
Also, alcohol on an empty stomach is genuinely not good wrt health risks
It turns fasting from a healthy activity into an unhealthy one

Added sugar, sugary junk etc also hinder fat-burning, because they spike insulin, which when switches your body from fat-burning to fat storage
and also spikes hunger and cravings
They are also empty calories, supplying almost no beneficial nutrition.
Hence your body would lack nutrition for the day

So all this is why we also don't have donuts etc on an FD menu

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2018 21:54

Desperately Post whenever you need, FD or NFD
whether you want advice, encouragement,
or just to let us know how you are getting on
Usually someone around, unless you're in another time zone and it's a very supportive place Smile

OP posts: