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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 79: We’re avoiding POO CRUMBS on communal cake & biscuits and enjoying our meals instead

972 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2018 11:09

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
(optional) Guide Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
snailhunter · 16/07/2018 11:47

Well, maintenance is going well here! Just did my weekly weigh in to find that I've lost a pound and am now 9st 9! Blimey! Surprising after sticking at 9st 10-12 for the last three months!

Also had a great NSV - got last year's bikini out in preparation for holiday and boy, am I glad I did. It is ENORMOUS on me. I mean, properly huge. Huge enough to be positively indecent. Bikini shopping calls!

BigChocFrenzy · 16/07/2018 12:00

Well done on your SV, snail - I said the half-marathon training might gradually trim further, if there's anything to trim.
Brilliant bikini NSV - you don't want a Bikini Falling Off NSV Grin - and definitely a bikini shop reward

smiled Focus and you'll reach that 12st milestone
Doesn't matter if it's this week or in a couple of weeks, so long as you get there

OP posts:
CheshireSplat · 16/07/2018 12:51

Very keen not to derail the thread, but to respond Quacking and 43 I do recommend it. It's not the easiest to read and I'm reading it through once and then I'm going back through it with a highlighter pen. First read about it on (where else) Mumsnet, so may be worth a bit of a search to see if you think it appeals. It's certainly working for me so far - it make should look deep into your soul and question your long-term motivation, with an emphasis on health.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 16/07/2018 13:01

well done iam on your weigh in and fab news snail that you are continuing to lose Smile

Thanks cheshire

Ta1kinpeace · 16/07/2018 14:17

snail
Swimwear NSVs are definitely some of the best Grin

crumbseverywhere · 16/07/2018 14:23

quacking well done in your 10k, that’s a great achievement, especially in this heat.

ipity another fan of C25K here, it worked really well for me post pregnancies when I was completely unfit

bcf I eat more fish than meat so will definitely try the salmon with salad next fast day, sounds good.

newyork welcome, I’m new too

I have family staying for a few days and am finding it harder to track meals when cooking for more people. Do you track everything you cook? For example I did homemade pizzas so made several with different topping to feed 8 people. I didn’t weigh all ingredients so had no idea of calories per slice. I did try and load up on salad and had a lot less pizza than I would have pre-new WOE so hopefully stayed within limits. Is it best to just write off some meals but with awareness to make up for it the next day?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tom-kerridges-courgette-and-ricotta-pancakes-recipe-jr779xzgw
Tried these yesterday- really nice- not sure if filling enough for FD but great light meal for NFD

Good luck to today’s fasters

Iamblossom · 16/07/2018 14:55

crumbs in those situations I MFP a slice of generic pizza and err on a higher example than a lower. That way you are there or thereabouts?

Iamblossom · 16/07/2018 14:57

struggling today. I am tired which doesn't help.

So far:

2 hard boiled eggs
5 water crackers
0% greek yog with raspberries.

If I have a prawn salad and not an omelette I should stay within 600 which I am fine with but there seems a lot of hours in the day still to go....

Borris · 16/07/2018 15:24

FD here today. Had a lovely weekend visiting friends. So think this weeks weigh in might not be good!!!

Also can’t do b2b due to work meeting tom night with food (home cooked by boss so not really poss to avoid without being rude). So doing weds instead. And then next week is tricky too with family visiting so planning a b2b on Saturday and Sunday this week too instead of next mon-Tuesday. Feel like I’m juggling Grin

Iamblossom · 16/07/2018 16:24

and just fell into a bowl of bitesize shredded wheat.

petrolpump28 · 16/07/2018 18:25

hello one and all, contemplating jumping in. I thought it was very simple on the non fast days, eat as normal.
Now it seems to involve counting and food types. Sorry I'm a bit confused.

PersisFord · 16/07/2018 18:34

Hello, hello, hello! I’m hoping I can join you guys for a bit if that’s ok? I lost tonnes of weight doing 5:2 and have been at my target weight (65kg) for 2 years by doing 2 FD and no calorie counting the rest of the time, but no snacking and no breakfast. It has worked brilliantly. However....I have found that although my weight is the same, I have thickened up a bit around the waist and I definitely noticed disproportionate loss from my tummy when I was doing it properly. I’m hoping to recreate that, and my BMI could stand to be a bit lower.....so here I am!

I have fasted today which has been tough as not enough coffee was available at my new job but I will rectify this!

to the other Monday fasters! And, as ever, my gratitude to and appreciation for BCF

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 16/07/2018 19:23

Oh no iam hope the shredded wheat sufficed.

Welcome back persis and welcome petrol it's really not that confusing, go back and read the OP and then use the tdee calculator to work put your calories on your non fast days (nfds) any questions just ask!!

Fd done here and kitchen closing on 499 calories...

Borris · 16/07/2018 19:56

Who knew a large pear is 130 calsShock. That’s 1/4 my days ration gone

Borris · 16/07/2018 19:58

petrol I think it depends on your normal for NFD. Most of us have to calorie count for a little while to find a sensible normal. You can’t fast 2 days and gorge on 5 and expect to lose.

Iamblossom · 16/07/2018 20:13

Hi @petrolpump28 - it depends what your "normal" is. If your normal is too many calories for your frame then you will gain weight.

Half the concept of 5:2 is retraining your normal on non fast days to be a healthy one for lots of people.

Use the tdee calculator in the OP and put in your activity level one below what it actually is so that you don't overestimate the amount you burn through exercise. That will give you a guide as to how many cals to try and stick to on non fast days.

Iamblossom · 16/07/2018 20:14

Kitchen closed on 800 so not a disaster but not fantastic. Will keep a tight rein on intake for next few days to compensate.

petrolpump28 · 16/07/2018 20:18

ok dokey I'm scoring 1600 for non fast days. So I need to count calories?

Sorry, once I grasp it I'll be ok.

Borris · 16/07/2018 20:33

I would count calories the first few weeks. If you consistently come in around 1600 then you don’t need to. But probably you are eating more than that (and hence why you’re on this thread Wink) and so counting will help at first.

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 16/07/2018 22:17

Think I came in at under 500 today. Hope all you Monday fasters had a good one. Time for a sleepy tea & bed SmileBrew

BigChocFrenzy · 16/07/2018 22:47

Welcome back, persis I remember you Smile
Yes, 5:2 usually targets mid-section fat
Do you think you copuld be pre / meno ?

Welcome, petrol Smile Jump in and join us
The OP "How To Start" section has more detail if you want it.

It is only on FDs that you shouldn't drink any alcohol, or have any sugary treats or other junk whatsoever.
Otherwise, 5:2 works with any kind of food preferences: "normal British" / Mediteranean / veggie / vegan / low carb ...

Most people can lose on 5:2 without ever counting on NFDs - I didn't

So - unless you are in a particular hurry - I suggest newbies try the first 2 weeks without calorie counting on NFDs
See how you go.

If progress is slower than expected, then you may need a week on mfp to see where the issue is:
alcohol / sweet junk / chips / crisps / takeaways / ...
and if necessary, use mfp as training wheels until you learn to eat no more than your body needs.

Right from Week 1, I strongly recommend - to boost loss - 5:2 healthy habits every NFD:

  • No snacking or grazing ever - the most effective tip ! Nothing between meals, including lattes, booze or even fruit If you allow snacks on weekends & holidays, you are just perpetuating the habit
  • Stay within NHS alcohol limits - also important for many folk !
  • Cut right back on flavoured fizzy drinks - even diet ones. They can hinder loss.
  • Drink lots of water
  • Be sensible about the amount of "treats", especially sweet ones and only have them as part of a meal, e.g. as pud
OP posts:
SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 17/07/2018 07:43

13.1 1/4 - almost there!!! Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 17/07/2018 08:00

Well done on your SV, smiled
That's motivation to stay focused this week

OP posts:
PersisFord · 17/07/2018 08:15

BCF eeek I hope not!! I think (hope!) it’s due to too many carbs - have slipped into the habit of eating things like pasta and breakfast cereal (that’s like crack for me!!). I need to eat more protein I think - FD dinner last night was tandoori salmon and a big spinach salad....was lovely and full afterwards and no reaching for pudding!

Good luck Tuesday fasters, and extra good luck to people trying a sensible NFD (the hardest!!)

quackingduck222 · 17/07/2018 08:27

Badger - yes I remember you saying you were doing 4:3 for a little bit before your holiday. That’s good that’s it’s working for you.

43 - are you taking food with you on your camping trip?

NewYork - Welcome, and well done for your first week. 5lbs is a absolutely fantastic amount. That is honestly loads.

BCF - the organisers said there was going to be timing signs but it didn’t happen. It was a bit of a lash up as that wouldn’t of been possible with everyone grouped together as the people doing the half would of all been at the back and some of those are quick and competitive. I was overtaken at the 8k mark by some nippy ones doing the half marathon Blush.

Smiled - your so close to that next stone bracket now. Good luck for this week rooting for you.

Blossom- well done on the scales being kind. How did you find your power walk in this muggy heat?

Well done snail on your loss. Also on needing a new bikini I think the reality doesn’t kick in until you try something on you haven’t worn in a while as the change for us has been so gradual. Enjoy your bikini shopping.

Cheshire I had a look on amazon and it’s good reviews.

Crumbs - it’s a lot more difficult to track when your cooking bigger meals between people especially if there are lots of ingredients.

Borris - you’ve got a busy week. I wouldn’t worry too much about not being able to b2b each week. It’s good to mix it up now and again.

Petrol - Welcome, some of us don’t count calories especially in the beginning. I personally found I was having some stalls weight loss wise and had no clue about calorie content as it’s something I’d never done before. Turns out I was having some huge calorie bombs that I didn’t know about as I was under guessing. So I started tracking on My fitness pal and never looked back. My “normal” was way too much food.

Welcome back Peris I do recognize your name.

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