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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 79: We’re avoiding POO CRUMBS on communal cake & biscuits and enjoying our meals instead

972 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2018 11:09

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
(optional) Guide Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
BigChocFrenzy · 15/07/2018 07:25

calzone You need to tackle NFDs, not avoid them
Fasting - like exercise - is good in sensible amounts, but in excess can over-stress your system

The limited research on OMD suggests that it is not a healthy WOE wrt CVD & BP - probably especially for women, since we know women tend to be more sensitive to extreme fasting WOLs than men

My recommendations:
Plan each NFD in advance, like you do the FDs
If the problem on NFDs is that you consume food / drink that you cut out on FDs - alcohol, added sugar, takeaways etc - then cut these out on NFDs too, rather than turning them into FDs
And NEVER snack

OP posts:
badger82 · 15/07/2018 11:50

Solidarity Calzone I'm the same but following BCFs advice I am gradually improving them and this week have pretty much stayed within TDEE. I did find a bit of 4:3 helped and also 16:8 some days just for a bit more discipline. It's an ongoing battle though!

calzone · 15/07/2018 15:45

Ok

I will try harder.

Thank you 💐💐

BigChocFrenzy · 15/07/2018 16:01

Good luck,badger, calzone Smile
We're all rooting for you

OP posts:
Iamblossom · 15/07/2018 16:29

Well today I have basically eaten the left overs of Waitrose sandwiches and quiche from a party we threw last night. I wouldn't even know where to start calorie counting all of it.

Looking forward to a fd tomorrow.

Ta1kinpeace · 15/07/2018 16:40

THis morning was scrambled egg and black pudding - no idea of calories
then water and a banana to last till supper
of mock au vin (chicken pieces baked in olive oil, tomato puree butter herbs and veg) to be served with a ton of veg

BigChocFrenzy · 15/07/2018 18:38

You probably have very healthy blood sugar control, TiP if banana on its own works as lunch (high GI)
So that's encouraging for you, but fruit as lunch might be a problem for someone who strugglers with carbs

OP posts:
Ta1kinpeace · 15/07/2018 18:42

Indeed, and I've been maintaining for years and can merrily do most of a day without food while working.
I've never measured my blood sugar but presume its pretty boring.

For those still struggling to master "Non fasting days" its important to realise that once you get to happy weight
those days will still be a lot lower calories than they used to eat when they were big.

I think back to Sunday Breakfasts of three croissants with butter and jam and wonder how I ever managed it.

badger82 · 15/07/2018 20:15

Agree TIP it's a gradual reduction in amount of food eaten. It's a slow process not arrived at overnight but persistence is paying off

quackingduck222 · 16/07/2018 06:52

Calzone - where are you struggling on NFDs? Are you using MFP and weighing and measuring you food? If you tell us what your having difficulty with we may be able to offer some advice.

Badger- how are you finding 4:3 is that temporary? I’ve tried 4:3 a few times in the past but I never ever loose on the 3rd fast so I stopped doing it.

Blossom a good FD will see you straight. That’s the beauty of this.

TiP - that sounds lovely. Can’t beat a bit of black pudding.
And that’s so very true about eating less now than when we were bigger. I don’t know how I used to do it honestly.

Badger - 100% agree with you there. But small gradual changes over time do make a massive overall difference in the long term BUT it’s manageable rather than changing everything at once like normal diet mode. Also I find it’s reintroducing new habits that stick.

I completed my 10k yesterday had a terrible start. It was a small event where all the runners from the half, 10k & 5k were in together and just lined up to start. I got pushed along with the crowd at too fast a pace for me and got a blinding stitch. It was tough hot and hilly.

Good luck to all the fasters today.

badger82 · 16/07/2018 07:04

Well done on your run Quacking. I did 4:3 just one week and I did lose more, but definitely couldn't do it every week. I may do it this week as holiday on Friday.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/07/2018 07:53

Morning all and good luck to the Monday fasters.

Phew, 1st day back at work after 3½ weeks hols - it's a shock !

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 16/07/2018 07:59

As duck has found in the past, 4:3 doesn't speed things up for some folk, as they automatically eat a bit more on the remaining NFDs.
However, those who have NFDs properly under control should find it does boost loss a bit over a month or two, e.g. before a hols.
Duck might well find 4:3 works for her now - when she no longer needs it !Grin

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 16/07/2018 08:29

well done quacking on your 10k even if you did have a rocky start

at cheshire good to hear you are maintaining well, might download that book too

Oh bcf that must be so hard after 3.5 weeks off, hope it goes quickly Smile

FD here today, got a really tricky month coming up with camping trip this weekend, then meals out next weekend and then 5 nights in London with DH and DS so i need to be careful! I really wanted to see the 11s on the scales before I went to London but that is a whole 4lb away so need to rethink my goal Sad

Anyway, good luck fellow Monday fasters Grin

newyorklover1 · 16/07/2018 08:56

Hi everyone

I'm new to this - stared last Wednesday and finished my first fast yesterday and the scales are showing a 5lb loss todayGrin this is unheard of for me as I lose weight so so slowly usually. I have 1 stone 3lb to lose in total so that's a huge chunk off already!

I'm out at the weekend and have a dress that I want to feel slimmer in so hoping I can lose slightly more so I'm going to fit my two fast this week into Tuesday and Friday.

I'm loving this! I'm limiting my nfd to 1200 calories even though my tdee is more like 1600.

newyorklover1 · 16/07/2018 08:56

I finished my second fast yesterday not first Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 16/07/2018 08:58

Well done on completing the race, duck after that difficult start
In the few races I've attended, they divide up the racers into starting groups according to their stated usual time for the event,
so the pros at the front, followed by the fastest amateurs, then the next group etc

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 16/07/2018 08:58

Welcome NewYork Smile
Well done on your SV and an excellent start

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 16/07/2018 09:01

You may soon find you want to eat up to your full TDEE on NFDs, which would continue loss but at an easier pace.
NFDs are "maintenance" days, FDs are where the loss happens.

Or if you are comfy as you are, not hungry on NFDs and the WOL is sustainable, then it's absolutely fine to carry on - you may be still partly in fasting mode, using burned bodyfat as fuel

OP posts:
SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 16/07/2018 09:06

Morning all.
Just checking in for a Monday FD. Was feeling a little wobbly about doing it this morning whilst having to yell at my DC to get ready for school. But a coffee and a read of this brilliant thread has got me back on track. So thank you!

REALLY want to see 12st on my scales this week - so am a fair way behind you 43 - but it would just feel really significant to be down to the next stone wouldn't it?

I'm 2.5 lbs off so in theory it's possible. Am off for a swim now to chill me out & stop me thinking about food 🙄

Hope your first day back at work goes well BChoc

Wow a 10k in this heat is very impressive quacking well done you!

Have a super day fasters 😁

badger82 · 16/07/2018 09:12

Wow NY Lover that's such a great start!

newyorklover1 · 16/07/2018 09:15

Thanks both! I did eat my full tdee ons a Tuesday and allowed myself some halo ice cream (320 calories in a huge tub)

To be honest I feel like I've got loads to play with on nfd because it's so restrictive on fd!

newyorklover1 · 16/07/2018 09:15

On Saturday! Dear me my typos are awful today!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 16/07/2018 09:24

welcome newyork and excellent start Grin

smiled here's hoping you get to see the 12s soon... I think you could at only 2.5lb away. Realistically, I think with all of the summer events etc going on its going to be difficult impossible for me to get into the 11s but I am going to try my best.

Iamblossom · 16/07/2018 10:48

welcome newYork and yes excellent start!

Quacking I am in awe of you running in this weather, well done. Flowers

So I weighed at 8 10 which was a surprise as thought it would be much more but I don't think yesterday's food has caught up with me yet! Hmm

2 hard boiled eggs so far this morning and a weighted power walk on the treadmill. God it's hot again.