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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 79: We’re avoiding POO CRUMBS on communal cake & biscuits and enjoying our meals instead

972 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 30/06/2018 11:09

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
(optional) Guide Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
plus3 · 11/07/2018 11:06

Thanks Forty only had a sandwich & yoghurt for my 500 Cals at 2 pm ish, but then had really bad indigestion. Couldn’t tell if it was because of fasting or because of stress ( I work in Intensive care and it was one of those days...) got though the day, came home with a massive headache & felt it was all for nothing this morning Sad
Will read everyone’s happy stories & try to find some motivation

badger82 · 11/07/2018 12:28

Why is it that NFDs are harder than FDs?! Fasting today and it's a breeze so far and I'm super energetic and positive, yesterday was a struggle and I exceeded TDEE after losing control. Not terrible but what's the psychology??!

noideawhattocallmyself · 11/07/2018 12:43

FD today - also have just signed up to a free health check with my work - they'll start in September so I have 2 months to get even healthier. :)
Also I think I'm going to count weigh in as after FD2 as the holding out for 'official' weigh in on a Monday is messing with my head.
Things I'm learning on the WOE:

  1. it's normal to feel hungry before a meal
  2. I don't actually need snacks!
  3. a little bit of exercise does not mean I can eat more :)
  4. a 'slip up' does not mean failure
  5. there is no failure just rescheduled FD's
  6. after many (probably honestly around 20) years I might actually be able to do this...
Thanks to you all you lovely supportive people! Flowers
PopGoesTheWeaz · 11/07/2018 13:54

plus3 I don't eat much bread (but make up for it with other carbs) but I find now that I've cut down on carbs in general (just as a side effect of calorie counting) that if I have a fluffy baguette sandwich my stomach goes a bit crampy.

crumbseverywhere · 11/07/2018 14:17

Nounder - sounds similar to C25K without the slightly annoying voice overs, I still can’t listen to Jo Whiley on the radio without feeling the pain!

Borris - I had a Sainsbury ready meal for FD yesterday as well. Chicken laska I think. I bought it as I was working in the evening but agree it wasn’t great. Easy for counting calories though when short of time. Well done with b2b.

Quacking- hiit with running sound good as I also find it a bit dull going at one pace especially as my route tends to stay the same.

Naughty - I know what you mean about not eating to DHs level, I was often eating similar portions to my DH when he clearly has a higher BMR to me plus does more exercise.

Cake- great work with fitting into your dress. Good luck with the FD.

Smiled - your TDEE is similar to mine, are you quite tall?

Fast day was good yesterday, I was working in the evening which made it much easier as otherwise that would be my prime snacking time. Scales this morning said I have lost 2.8kg in 6 days. I can’t remember was time of day the start weight was but can’t believe that’s accurate. I’m going to take some body measurements today.

BigChocFrenzy · 11/07/2018 14:40

goblin Very motivating clothes and compliments NSV
Motivating enough not to hit the wine after sports day Wink

Good news about your SV, Borris
Now you know not to worry about blips

plus That sounds like a blip, especially if you didn't drink enough water
Stay focused and look at the trend over weeks

Those are good insight NSVs, noidea
I advise everyone to weigh the morning after FD2, for consistency in comparisons
Naked, 1st thing after loo, but before drinking or eating anything

That sounds promising, crumbs
As posted above, do weigh under consistent conditions, so you can track progress properly

That's a good TDEE, smiled Ignore BMR
Did you use Mosely's TDEE Calcc* - it is the most reliable
Also, if you exercise, then use 1 activity level below what you think

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 11/07/2018 18:42

I'm the same as you pop bread abd pasta now give me a terrible bloaty painful belly...

Fd done on 495cals.... fizzy water to cheer on England

Well done on your sv crumbs

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 11/07/2018 18:43

Ooh that's a great list noidea Smile

Naughtysausage · 11/07/2018 19:14

Famous prawn omelette for tea and... I think I've reached eggy prawn saturation point. Am I allowed to say that and stay? Blush

Excellent work 43 and love the list no idea.

Closing day 2 of b2b on 626.

badger82 · 11/07/2018 19:15

Just a tip, I bought a delicious soup called Bol, packed with 3/5 a day and 200 cals for the whole pot. On offer in Sainsbury's at the moment. Delicious and nutritious and filling.

cakegoblin · 11/07/2018 19:40

noidea This is my first ever successful weight loss in 20 years too - probably more in fact as I tried to diet all the time as a teen. Never got anywhere as I was in fact addicted to sugar all along.

Naughtysausage I have just had a less than satisfactory Famous Prawn Omelette too, might need some fresh ideas that are also v quick to cook for tomorrow.

badger Ooh, will look out for that! sounds nice, thanks for the tip!

Kitchen closed on 520ish plus one piece of filled pasta.

quackingduck222 · 12/07/2018 07:58

Naughty well done on your spontaneous B2B. I think it’s quite common for us to have the same portion size as our other half’s. I know I was, it was a huge eye opener to me to work out DHs TDEE against mine and it really put it into perspective for me.

Plus3- that’s sad to hear you’ve not lost any, if you can do try and drink loads especially in this heat.

Cake - you sound so happy and chilled and that is the best way to be. Hope you have a fabulous holiday.

Badger- it’s so strange isn’t it. I find my mind wandering on NFDs to what I can have next. But with FDs I know that’s it no more food coming and my mind switches off.

NoIdea - that’s a brilliant new way of thinking. And yes, you will be able to do this.

Crumbs - well done on your SV that’s absolutely fantastic loss this week.

43 - well done on your FD.

Cake - well done on your FD.

Good luck to everyone fasting today.

Iamblossom · 12/07/2018 08:00

Totally agree that Fds can actually be easier than nfds.

I am at home today and I want to eat All The Food.

BigChocFrenzy · 12/07/2018 08:49

It's great 5:2 is working for you goblin
Phew, after 20 years of disappointment from other diets - that must have been so frustrating

blossom On NFDs, keep to the 5:2 healthy habits and this should help keep appetite under control:

  • No snacking between meals - this includes nuts !
  • Plan 2-4 actual meals per day, plenty of veg & adequate protein, so you don't get hungry
  • NHS acohol limits
  • Lots of water
  • Sensible about treats - for you, this means NUTS & booze Grin - for others it is sugary crap & booze
OP posts:
Iamblossom · 12/07/2018 09:17

you know me so well Big Choc Smile

badger82 · 12/07/2018 09:44

I'm going for a FD today too, I've got hols in a week so just trying the 4:3 approach until then to maximise results. We will be in France so lots of cheese and croissants 🥐
I've written a calendar plan of walking, swimming, workouts etc and going to try to alternate cheese and croissant days to minimise damage

Borris · 12/07/2018 09:56

badger that sounds a sensible approach. You can't go to France without some cheese and croissants.

I agree with everyone else that NFD are harder than FDs. I think it's because it's just 24/48 hrs so it's easy to stick to the rules on those days.

Oh well it's working. I've got a NSV to report Grin. I started this WOE as when the hot weather in April came I could only (just) fit in 1 of my 4 pairs of shorts from last summer Shock. Well now I can comfortably wear 2,out of 4 and a third I can get in (with lots of tummy holding in!!). I guess that's the proof. I'm so pleased.

Iamblossom · 12/07/2018 10:07

Borris that is fabulous. Flowers

Naughtysausage · 12/07/2018 10:47

Congrats borris. Very satisfying NSV.

Am having NFD after B2B and can't be bothered to eat anything! I had coffee and shreddies for breakfast but can't think of anything I want for lunch. And trying to meal plan for a food shop is proving very dull and uninspiring.

Will go and pick up some Bol soups for FD next week though!

BigChocFrenzy · 12/07/2018 10:48

Very useful shorts NSV, borris
Stay focused snd you'll be able to wear all of them, comfortably too

OP posts:
MightyMunki · 12/07/2018 11:03

FD here, I’m trying this prawn omelette you guys keep going on about Grin

badger82 · 12/07/2018 11:33

Oh yeah mighty. What's the recipe?

plus3 · 12/07/2018 11:35

Ok FD - have a banana & chicken salad plus milk for a coffee to see me through today. Will drink lots of water & hope I have enough time to go to the loo !!!

Obsessive weigh in this morning was 12st 2 so have put on a lb yesterday Sad

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 12/07/2018 12:39

plus if the scales affect you badly just weigh once a week after your 2nd FD, that's what I do otherwise those small gains that naturally occur would tip me over the edge too easily and before you know it I've thought sod it and binged on crap!!!

Excellent NSV borris

NFD here and had skinny vanilla (sugar free) latte for breakfast, then just had chicken breast, tomatoes, beetroot and cucumber followed by a nectarine and 2 plums (I never normally eat that much fruit but it was tasty!) Not sure what's for dinner, but i'll brewell within TDEE as i have around 1350 calories remaining Grin

I agree with some of the other posters that depending on the week, NFDs can be harder than FDs (I'm thinking TOTM)

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 12/07/2018 12:40

be well

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