5:2 Thread No. 79: We’re avoiding POO CRUMBS on communal cake & biscuits and enjoying our meals instead

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
(optional) Guide Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Crumbs Welcome. Firstly 10kg/ 22lbs is very doable on this way of eating.
Once you get used to it running on a FD is absolutely fine. I actually find it easier to run on empty (fasted) than with a belly full of food sloshing around. I even do this on 10ks I just make sure I have a NFD and a good dinner the night before. But you must drink plenty. For me I find the day after a FD a bit more tricky as you are running on empty.

Actually I’m seeing more and more on YouTube/ Instagram that bodybuilding types and lots of fitness people are combining some form of IF into there schedules.

Blossom- well done on your SV.

FD done yesterday at 600, random combination of food with crab sticks, eggs and tomatoes but shopping is due today. I have a good week planned and have ordered no crap.

Good luck to all the fasters and B2Bers today.

Hi quacking
I have has a rather high stress year so far (and more months of it to come)
So proper 500 calorie fasts have not really happened
But
No snacking
One big one small meal a day
Lots of exercise
Mean that I am about 6 pounds heavier than ‘happy weight’ which is bearable.

6 years in, the principles and thought process of 5:2 still holds solid

I had a busy weekend and a big eating day on Sunday - SIL Birthday (she was 50 and it was a long hot boring day with toooo much food and cake).

But yesterday was a FD. around 580 cal I guess. Next FD is planned for Thursday.
This morning I was 89.6!! Yay!!

Other NSV:
I managed 4x4minutes running yesterday morning.
My jeans are looser.
I put on my rain jacket this morning and it isn't as snug on the hips as it was last time I wore it, HURRAH!!
I love the smaller signs that my body shape is changing and shrinking

Checking in quickly before I read the full thread. Hello!
I've had two weeks off for a holiday but am back on a FD today. Not really looking at any weight gain as it's TOTM so it's a bit inflated. Will wait a few days and check then. Feels like I've been waiting to get stuck into a FD!

excellent SV smiled

Welcome crumbs

well done iam

well done on your SV and NSV nounder

Hope you had a wonderful holiday naughty enjoy your FD

FD today and so far nothing but a couple of cups of tea and diluted squash, omelette or salad for lunch with some greek yogurt I think

Hope everyone has a good day

Hey quacking! My official TDEE is 1720 - that's 'lightly active', set one below what I think is my true one of 1920 (moderately active). But I've set my goal TDEE a bit lower just because I feel a bit weird about going into maintenance. I'm loving my new body so much and feeling so good about myself - particularly in the summer. Also have holiday and beach wedding at end of July so want to be very sure I stay lean for those! I think I'll probably relax a bit once I've been maintaining for a while.

Thanks for the welcome.

BCF - I will look into hiit as that should be easy to fit in even on a busy day, I’ve also been wanting to incorporate more strength training so like you said, that could be a good option for FDs.

Smiled - a stone in 3 months is brilliant, I would be thrilled with that.

Quacking - it’s good to hear exercise is very doable on a fast day. I already find it difficult to fit in regular exercise so don’t want to create a further 2 days a week that I can’t do it. I know what you mean about running on an empty stomach, I much prefer to go in the morning if at all possible.

Nounder - well done on your NSVs. Is your interval running part of C25K?

FD is going okay. Veg and beans for lunch with chicken noodles planned for dinner. Unfortunately I’ve been grossly underestimating how much milk I put in my tea and coffee (90mls!) so that is going to take me up to 570.

Hello crumbs! Sorry I'm totally rubbish at keeping up at the mo.
It is sort of C25K. I have done that in the past and this time I'm just working up to what I want to do. So I'll do a couple more of 4x4 and then I might try 3x5 until I'm at something like 2x10 or 2x12 if that makes sense (I mean four x 4 Minute runs up to 2 x 12 minute runs).
I measured the milk I put in my coffee and it's around 15ml a cup. I drink around 3 cups a day I guess. It's good to keep track of all the calories if you can. But as al the others have already said, be kind to yourself and start gently if you need to.

Snail well done you and hurrah that you are feeling happy with your body!

Thanks to all re the NSV. I am just as pleased with those as I am finally breaking through the 90kg into the 80s!

6 years in, that's fantastic, TiP I hope the ro stress has wound down now
You are the most senior poster here, imn terms of 5:2 time served , although maybe other oldtimers lurk occasionally

crumbs FD tip for milk & sugar
The day before, measure out in advance & calorie count the total allowance you decide for milk & sugar for the FD
Put them in separate sealed tubs
Then the next day, ration them out as you choose

Well done on your SV, blossom
The scales are motivating for most of us, but you have also improved your fitness (except in that toe !)

Welcome back, sausage
The 1st FD back can indeed feel invigorating after holiday indulgence.

Nounderpants - that all sounds great. How uplifting finding clothes looser

Just finished a b2b day2. Have had a busy day so actually not been too bad. Cheated and bought a ready meal. It was from Sainsbury’s, some fancy chefs thingy. 220 calories and it was horrible. The home made food is def the way to go. Oh well, done for another week. Just hoping to have lost on the scales tomorrow 🤞🏻

Borris Ready meals aren't necessarily "cheating", but they can sometimes be disappointing & tasteless

They can be a quick healthy choice - but check the label has < 5g sugar per 100g and that the ingredients list is recognisable as food,
i.e. no added sugar, glucose, palm oil, hydrogenated veg oil, E numbers, fillers etc

Well done on your b2b, sounds a good one

Morning all
Just calculated my TDEE and got the following results:

	Your <strong>BMI</strong> is: <strong>28.3</strong>
	Your <strong>BMR</strong> is: <strong>6494 kJ / 1552 calories</strong>
	Your <strong>TDEE</strong> is: <strong>8930 kJ / 2134 calories</strong>

What's a BMR?

Morning everyone, well yesterday's fd went out the window as well I was just so hungry, totm arrived mid morning so at least that's the reason why. Going to do one today, got a busy day at work so should be okay, just no beer watching the match!

Good luck on the scales borris

smiled I think it means basic metabolic rate, what your body needs just to function? I'm sure someone who knows what they are talking about can explain it better

65.9 kg today so 0.7kg down from last weeks gain and 0.2kg down overall. Thanks everyone for the reassurance that the gain was just a blip ... you were right!

Good luck today 43. I watched the last match sober (was driving) and it was still fun

TiP - it’s good to see you again. Is the stress down to your job? 6 years wow.

Well done on your SV NoUnderpants.
And well done on the running especially in this heat it makes it much harder. It’s not going to be long and your going to need smaller clothes.

Naughty- I hope you had a great holiday.

43 - hope you had a good FD yesterday.

Snail - yep, I get it. I was completely freaking out about maintenance. Are you close now?
That’s lovely to hear how happy you are!
I feel a lot more relaxed about maintenance now. It works and you can still have your treats and pull it back with a fast. I’m actually really pushing the boundaries on TDEE.
It’s a strange concept tho especially if you’ve been here a while in loosing weight mode.

Crumbs - Glad your FD is going well. I incorporated HIIT into my running at home. 30 seconds fast walk 30 seconds fast run I actually enjoyed it so much it’s stuck as I find it breaks up the bordum and I can go much further than one pace. Good luck for your week and make sure you update us on your progress also take some measurements as it’s great to look back on.

Borris - well done on your b2b. Yes it’s so much easier when your busy. Agreed about the healthy ready meals being horrible.

Smiled BMR is your body’s metabolic rate so according to the calculations your body burns 1552 a day on its basic functions. Ignore that, it’s the TDEE you want. So your calories for NFD are
2124 you then create the calorific deficit on your FDs. That is a very decent TDEE I must say.

Shocked this morning I have lost 1lb4 overnight no exercise yesterday but managed to consume 2500 cals. I’m now not far off initial target weight that I’ve usually got to fight to stay at. Thanks body il take that gladly.

Good luck to everyone fasting today.

Checking in for a FD. Even with the football! We got this fasters/England football team

Turning yesterdays FD into a B2B. It just felt nice after so much eating! Am making a dress for an event next week (waves at pop) which is nicely engrossing so you don't notice meal times coming and going.

The last two weeks have been DH two weeks home (he works away) and I hadn't seen him in 4 months so we just went out for lunch a lot. And his appetite is enormous! I need to really work on eating to my level, not his, for when he gets back again.

Congrats to everyone's NSV and SV's! And good luck to fellow fasters today. Will watch the football later with a cup of tea!

Thanks 43 & Quacking
So now I'm wondering why would your body need more than the BMR then for TDEE?

quacking
Yup, stress is entirely work related but I'll get there.

smiled
Your BMR is the number of calories your body would be burning is you copied my son .... lying on his bed watching videos of other people playing video games on his phone

Your TDEE is the number of calories you burn going about your daily life - as if my son actually tidied his room and put things in the dish washer

A very useful number to keep in your head is your sedentary TDEE at happy weight ie the number of calories you'll need to stay at your happy weight when you get there
as if you start planning your intake around that number now, maintenance will be a doddle

Morning everyone ...FD yesterday at work, weighed myself this morning and have lost nothing. Still 12st 1lb. It was crazy busy, probably didn’t drink enough & all in all, a bit miserable & stressful. Bah. Got to do it all again tomorrow.

Hi all, just been catching up on the thread after a relaxed week, lovely to hear accounts from people with all levels of experience on this WOE from newbies to old hands to poets (more s to iamblossom!).

Checking in for first of my b2b fast days today, feeling calm and committed as I have had SO many compliments this week. Went out on Saturday in a dress I last fit into 4 years ago and I had to have an enormous elasticated tube dress around me to get into it at the time - didn't need it this time and felt fab. Just over a stone to go to what I think will be my Happy Weight (love that phrase) but have a holiday coming up so am going to just do my best on FDs this week and next and aim to be mindful on holiday. Good luck to anyone else fasting today! School sports day traditionally drives me to an early Wine Time but am going to have to resist today aren't I BCF?

plus that is very frustrating but it will just be a blip, stick with it and i'm sure you will see a loss after your second FD

cake some fantastic NSVs hope sports day isn't too traumatic :)