5:2 Thread No. 79: We’re avoiding POO CRUMBS on communal cake & biscuits and enjoying our meals instead

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
(optional) Guide Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate
Are You Addicted to Carbs Mosely’s Quiz

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Hello TIP!

Thank you HLBug that is so inspiring. I'm having a bit of a wobble and worrying that I may plateau here as I did around here last time around so it's great to see stories of progress.

Here's another B2B question. Do you think it's important to stick to under 650 cal per day, or would under 1300 across the two days work (ie 400 and then 900). My gut tells me that at 900 you wouldn't be in fast mode but wonder what other people's experience is.

wanders back in Hello all from maintenance-land! Well, I say that but at the moment maintenance just feels very much like what normal eating has become thanks to BCF's Patented Healthy Habits...

I was thinking about doing 16:8 every day but have decided it's not for me - I like breakfast too much and mornings tend to be when I do my long runs. So I've decided - until my half-marathon is over in early August, anyway - to do the following:

• during week, stick to conservative TDEE of 1500 or thereabouts
• no eating back exercise cals (which is hard when you're doing runs of two and a half hours! My run on Sunday came up as 1052 cals burned!)
• weigh once a week on Monday morning - if I'm up more than 2lb from Happy Weight (9st 10lb) then do an FD
• continue BCF's Patented Healthy Habits (no snacking, no junk, no booze in the week) which really have become second nature now and don't feel like deprivation at all.

Then, after the half marathon and my holiday at end of July, I'll keep an eye and see if anything changes weight-wise. So far this is my second week of maintenance and weight has stayed exactly the same, hooray.

That TDEE sounds really low if you are running for multiple hours at a go, are you sure that's enough for maintenance? I would be worried about not having the energy to perform but that said, I know if calories are well chosen they go along way so just something to check on.

Bug that is amazing!
Hope those of you that have been ill are feeling better.
Checking in today for day 2 of b2b. I was so busy yesterday that I got to 3.30 on nothing so I decided to turn it into a FD. Monday is a good day for fasting because i’m busy so it’s now a b2b. This is HARD. I’ve done 12k steps on the preschool run in the heat and a swimming lesson and was close to giving up but I’m on my second marmite drink which has revived me. I somehow have to survive another dc swimming lesson where I get in the pool and a food shop.

pop cheers for the concern! Thus far it’s seemed to work OK and have even had PBs in last few weeks! I only do one very long run a week, and I think my body is just used to it. My long run breakfast is two slices of wholewheat toast which for some reason gets me through, though I do have an energy gel at around an hour. I will be upping it on run days if I start feeling rubbish, though.

ahh well done on your PB. I know what you mean about your body getting used to it. I don't seem to get starved after my runs, but they are only an hour or so long. I think it might be different if I were running over 2 hours but I guess you build up to it and your body copes.

I'm considering training for a half marathon but keep thinking I should wait bc 1. THIS HEAT and 2. I've never done any race before so think maybe I should start with a 5K park run first :D

Half marathons are great fun - they are my favourite distance and the first proper run I did was a half. I use the training plans on my Garmin which are for various different levels. For my first half, I used the beginners' three runs a week plan which includes doing 5k and 10k runs as part of the training. If you can already run fairly easily for 5k then they're a great starting point, and if you are a complete beginner then start with Couch to 5k which I also did. I hadn't run a step in my
life when I started that four years ago!

Also sending positive vibes to you FriendlyGhost - you can do this! And to blossom for the awesome poem and to bug for the inspiration!

< waves to TiP >
Aha, the poo crumbs mantra caught your eye

Welcome back, munki
You are starting already in a better position that the last time, so go for it now !

Sounds a plan with very good 5:2 habits, snail
See how you feel & perform
Running doesn't burn as many calories as many folk think, but if you really do have that 3lb extra that you thought, then this WOL should zap it.

If you need a bit more energy, you can always tweak by adding a daily healthy extra
Do let us know how your maintenance on half-marathons goes, especially any races or PBs that you nail.

thanks for the info snailhunter. I shall have to have a more detailed look at training programs to see if it would be feasible. My running friends say it definitely is but I'm more cautious and really don't like setting goals if I don't think I can make them (hence my 5:2 plethora of minigoals!)But, like you I never ran before 4 years ago. Now I run 10k regularly and when I stop it's because I'm at my destination rather than I can't go further, so I'm sure it's just a matter of finding the time and pushing myself.

pop If you aren't an experienced runner, then I recommend starting 5k, no longer
Especially in this heat.

If you do train, then finish a couple of 5k races comfortably, you could then choose to build up to 10k
Or your bod may be better suited to with shorter, faster distance

Think this is a cross post, but I'm pretty experienced. I've just not ever joined a race as never seen the draw but the half marathon sounds like a really exciting challenge.

Checking in for b2b d1. So far had poached egg on toast and some grapes. Prawn omelette and sweet potato and salad planned for tonight. Feeling fine so far and hoping for a loss this week

Afternoon everyone and wow bug that is amazing.

Fd gone out the window today, I am so hungry (totm imminent) so going to try Tues or weds, not sure which yet.

This thread is moving fast, will head back and have a proper read.

Lovely poem iam

Thanks for the encouragement, bcf! I shall certainly be wandering in and out. I really want maintenance to work and am a bit nervous about undoing all my hard work, so def want to carry on accessing this awesome thread which is so supportive and encouraging.

pop When I first started running I was adamant that I was just doing it for me and wasn't interested in any organised events. But I found after I'd done Couch to 5K that I really wanted a new challenge. I trained for my first half very slowly and carefully - over 16 weeks - and didn't think about having a PB or anything, just wanted to complete it.

I found that bimbling along at the back of a half-marathon in the beautiful hills is a very nice and friendly place to be - everyone there was just like me, doing it for the fun of it and for their own personal goals rather than actually racing. All the Very Serious People are at the front and usually set off before everyone else, but even when I've encountered them they have been very friendly and encouraging also.

"Closed" sign is hung on kitchen door
I've had my tea, they'll be no more
I swam a mile, I walked the dogs
My sleep will be like resting logs

The warmth we're having deffo helps
Not hunger rumbles.....more like yelps
When I get passed about midday
I know the rest will be ok

Tv now, an options drink,
Belgian chocolate orange I think
Will hop on scales tomorrow and see
If this fast day's been kind to me.

[will stop now I promise ]

Blossom you have a talent with words!
I know I said I wouldn't fast today but accidentally have - I had a bit of scrambled egg this morning as felt a bit weak and was intending to have lunch but the day ran away with me! Have felt fine and have Thai prawn salad when I get in from PT so it will end up being 500ish.

Will do a solid NFD tomorrow though with lots of nutritious stuff and no junk

Fantastic poems blossom - we need them printing on tea towels for the kitchen

Just looking back over mfp entries and 3 months ago I was 14st.
Weighed in this morning and was 13st and 3/4lb.
I can't believe I've almost lost a stone.
2 more to go but I am finally feeling that it's actually possible. Amazing.
Just wanted to say thanks for all of your inspiring posts. It's really & truly helped me to consciously loose weight for the first time ever age 42!

Oh and bug you are awesome - well done!

Well done on your SV, smiled
So good you've found a WOE that works for you
Just stay focused on the healthy 5:2 habits and you'll smash that milestone, also get into the 12 stone somethings

Hello, can I join you?
I need to make some changes so have tentatively started 5:2. I did my first fast day on Friday and it was actually fine. I was working a long day so too busy to think much about it. This week I'm at home with my toddler as he is potty training so it's going to be a lot harder but I'm determined to give it a go tomorrow!

My aim is to lose the 10kg that has crept on over the last 5 years then maintain a healthier relationship with food. Snacking is currently my downfall.

I've been very inspired reading this thread as you all seem very committed for the long term 🙂

One question- how do you find exercising on fast days? I aim to run 5k 3x week but not sure I would manage it on a FD

Welcome, crumbs
and well done on your 1st FD last Friday.

Many folk have reached their target on 5:2
For best results, keep to the 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, especially NHS alcohol limits, no snacking

Most exercisers can continue on FDs, especially HIIT or strength / resistance training
Running is sometimes tough, because steady state cardio tends to draw fuel a bit more from glcogen stores than bodyfat and FDs will lower glycogen.

Your body may take a few weeks to adapt - or it may cope immediately.
Try it and see how you go
Or do sprint intervals or strength cross-training on FDs
If you prefer, while adapting to fasting, you can plan your training restdays on FDs

Morning all.

Back to 8 stone 8 after a 580 fd. God I like seeing those numbers on the scales. . I know it shouldn't make me happy and they are just numbers but it does. [shallow]

crumbs it's a question of acclimatising like anything else I guess but I strenuously exercise on fast days and always have. If anything it helps me as I exercise quells my hunger.

smiled that is fabulous well done you

Noidea- you will definitely be in the 12s next weigh in. And good luck for your next goal, really hope you can get that before your holiday.

Well done Bug, 4 stone is a huge achievement. Also shocked by your new low weight. Are you officially at your target now?

Mighty - good to see you back. These things happen but your back and that’s the main thing.

Hey TiP, how’s things going for you?

Pop - If you do have a plateau just stick with it and keep going it will shift eventually. I used to get one at the same point in each stone but when you get past it your good to go again.

B2B - I’ve done 500 a few times then 800 the next day when it’s been a unplanned B2B. No issues. I still take anything under 800 as a fast, sometimes you just need a bit extra to see you through rather than turning it into a NFD.

Snail - that sounds like a fantastic plan. What’s your TDEE? And have you recalculated it for your new activity level? Your calories do seem a bit on the low side. How many half’s have you done? Is it a regular thing for you? You sound like you’ve got it all figured out and that’s wonderful.

Friendly- sounds like you’ve had a really busy but good day FD wise, hope you breeze through today’s B2B.

Pop - id see if you have anything local to you for you to enter. Race days are awesome. If you do 10ks regularly I’d look at a 5k or a 10k Round here 10s are a lot easier to pick up than 5s. I missed 5k for that reason.

Borris hope your B2B went well.

Smiled - well done on your progress that’s awesome.