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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 76: Your body needn‘t be a temple, but join us to stop it being a junky drive-thru.

989 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2018 23:10

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
CheshireSplat · 26/04/2018 15:10

Smiles absolutely not! And that's where I was going wrong, losing about half a stone over 6 months!!!!

I need to retrain myself to eat well and "what I want" as an exception, eg once a week.

CheshireSplat · 26/04/2018 15:24

Oh no! Been looking forward to 3 o'clock bovril. But the bovril is marmite! Have put it in a mug with hot water anyway!!!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 26/04/2018 15:41

doh cheshire hope it still does the trick...

WreckTangled · 26/04/2018 15:48

I was so hungry I had to have a snack. Humous and celery. I think I'm addicted Blush

applelolly · 26/04/2018 17:00

home from work and have had a very , very small jacket potato, lots of salad leaves, cucumber and 3 cherry tomatoes with 1/2 small tin of tuna. That plus my mug of bovril and 10 cal jelly at lunch brings me to around 300 calories so far. Will have some 0% Greek yog with raspberries in a while then it's bedtime!!

BigChocFrenzy · 26/04/2018 17:49

Well done on your SVs, snail, Wreck
snail Your patience was rewarded

duck A few folk have managed 10-12 lb in a week, but that was the 1st week and they all had a lot to lose
No, my flat fell through, because other party changed her mind - however that was due to her being widowed in January and unsettled as to her plans, so I can't complain.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 26/04/2018 17:56

smiled The message "eat what you want" was very misunderstood - and misleading.
Mosely meant that 5 days per week are "normal" maintenance days, not diet days.
Also, on those 5 days, you don't have to cut out all starchy carbs or treats
BUT
obviously if what you want is 500 cals above maintenance, you won't lose

Some people who have been overweight quite a while, or who have had hormonal / med changes etc that lower their TDEE need to retrain their "normal" eating

imo, Mosely in his first rush of 5:2 hadn't realised that "normal" eating & drinking has become so distorted, both in type of food and in quantity

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 26/04/2018 18:03

Same with low carb
iirc on page 57 of my copy of the "New Diet Revolution" by Jeff Volek, who took over when Atkins died,
which says look that on low carb most women need within about 1600 cals daily to lose - and that is probably the "average" woman with 2000 TDEE (2000 is quite a realistic TDEE for those with a fair bit to lose)

OP posts:
snailhunter · 26/04/2018 18:14

Thank you BCF!

I know I have been banging on loads about my NSVs but I've just smashed my 5k personal best without even trying - under 30 mins for first time ever! I'm fairly sure that the 1st 2lb I'm no longer carrying has something to do with it. :) Also nobody else is home apart from the kids and they don't care so I will bore you lot.

Hockneypool · 26/04/2018 19:09

Snail well done on your 5k pb that’s a tremendous achievement. And I bet the kids are proud even if they don’t show or say it to you.

2nd Fast day done here. Wasn’t too bad because I was so busy at a community event I organised and running on adrenalin. Have a few more days at the event but the first day is done and I can relax a bit - I hope.

TalkinPeece · 26/04/2018 19:18

Blimey you lot are chatty !
Am trying to do just supper at the moment - HUGE stress and lots of work so no gym.
Feel very blobby and flabby, but it will pass.

BigChocFrenzy · 26/04/2018 19:47

Congrats on your PB, snail
It is important: you are clearly fitter and hence healthier

OP posts:
FriendlyGhost · 26/04/2018 20:00

That’s great snail. It’s amazing how much weight some of you have lost. 7lbs after a fast Shock
I feel like I let myself go a bit today. A FD yesterday and another night of virtually no sleep and I was ravenous. I tried to just have fruit for breakfast but I came across all weird and shaky on the way back from the preschool pick up and had to dive into Waitrose for a snack which I inhaled as soon as I had paid. Then I met a friend for lunch. My total calories were close to 2000 today so more than i wanted but I have done 15k steps and the shred so it’s not terrible. I will do better tomorrow!

NoWayNoHow · 26/04/2018 20:27

snail amazing SV and NSV today - huge well done!

wreck well done on a CRACKING SV!!

friendly you've exercised a huge heap so I wouldn't worry about the 2,000cals.

Today did NOT go to plan. Spent the morning waiting for my sandwich lunch at training day and it was a sit-down 3 course meal cos the hotel it was in was super fancy!

With dinner, I've gone 200cals over TDEE but it still leaves me 2,000 in deficit for the week, and scales showed a 1.5lb loss at this week's weigh in. Have lost 12lbs now so am DEFINITELY 43's twin now Grin

SV as well for me this week, I think. Not a drop of booze has passed my lips since Sunday, which is very unusual for me. I'm almost always within NHS limits, but still partake during the week when it's often really not been necessary. I like not feeling like I'm wasting calories!

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 26/04/2018 20:33

Thanks Cheshire & Bigchoc I think I will have to think about counting on my NFDs to make sure I'm not going way overboard. I'm finding it really interesting being more mindful about what I'm consuming.

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 26/04/2018 20:35

Well done for all the weight loss people - SO inspiring!

Booked our summer hols today so am on a countdown to being beach ready here now Confused

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 26/04/2018 20:42

Wow well done snail that's amazing Smile

Ha ha noway well done on your sv and hopefully no damage from the 3 course meal.
ghost I'm sure you will be just fine with all that exercise.

Well done hockney and all the other fasters. Kitchen closed today at 499 after a lovely tea of 4 heck spring sausages, a fried egg and some roasted mushrooms and tomatoes... yum

Off to bed in a bit as knackered, fingers crossed for weigh in tomorrow, still totm so will see...

BigChocFrenzy · 26/04/2018 21:03

friendly I recommend you avoid ever having fruit on its own
Every meal should contain protein
Even a "snack" is less of an issue if it has protein

Without buffering from any protein or fat accompaniments, the high sugar in fruit will spike your insulin, then later your blood sugar will crash and you will feel weak & hungry, as you experienced.

This effect will be magnified after a fast
When breaking your fast, have protein with some slow release carbs
e.g. eggs & tomato or bacon & mushrooms with wholegrain toast / pnut butter on wg toast / porridge (not instant)

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 26/04/2018 21:06

smiled I suggest you mfp just for a week, as a reality check and to help you decide what eating / drinking habits to modify.
If you prefer, you could stop mfp after that week, once you have the information
or use it for a while to help form the new habits.

mfp would highlight whether your issue is portion size, or hidden calorie bombs.
It would also highlight the amount of sugar & alcohol

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 26/04/2018 21:07

Well done, Thursday fasters Smile

OP posts:
Gobblebox · 26/04/2018 21:25

Hello. I haven’t had time to read the Previous posts. I’ll catch up tonight. Just wanted to check in. My second week and almost through my 2nd FD. I learnt last week I have to track NFD. Last weeks were an epic fail on NFDs (who was I trying to kid). Luckily I didn’t weigh in as I was too chicken It may have put me off. But this week I have weighed twice and numbers have gone down. I am sticking to weighing in kilos because I don’t know what they mean so much (I don’t want to get obsessed with the numbers - I’m an old stones and pounds girl). So I’ve tracked calories and have been eating to tdee and still been peckish (but due to snack habit more than anything else). How long have people found that the snacking habit takes to shift? I’m hoping a month or soConfused. I don’t think I can go below tdee just yet. Anyway I’ll read up once kids have done to bed. Looking forward to reading about my fellow 5:2ers

CheshireSplat · 26/04/2018 21:28

Don't worry snail bore away.

I can report back that a mug of marmite is absolutely fine and strangely tastes a bit like Bovril.

I've blown my FD this evening by snacking on the children's left-overs and having an extra piece of bread and butter I didn't need but wanted. Estimate I came in at 1000 calories. I ate it all at the same time as my well planned stew though, so from a fasting point of view at least I wasn't snacking.

So I'm going to claw back 500 cals over the next 3 days. Have a trip to London (which is greatly exciting as I'm from the provinces!!) So could be a difficult one foodwise. Except the friend I'm going with is very thin so I'll eat what she eats!!!

HLBug · 26/04/2018 21:33

FD no. 3 of the week closing on 707 calories and a BodyCombat session, so I'm happy with that Smile

Gammeldragz · 27/04/2018 00:18

3rd fast day done,

FriendlyGhost · 27/04/2018 00:37

Thanks BigChoc. That’s really useful. I didn’t know that and have a lot to learn about my diet I think. I’m noting everything down at the moment so I can see when and where I go wrong and make changes.

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