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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 76: Your body needn‘t be a temple, but join us to stop it being a junky drive-thru.

989 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2018 23:10

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
applelolly · 27/04/2018 06:46

snail well done on you pb, that is amazing
cheshire I struggled to find the bovrol in the shop the other day and nearly bought marmite wondering if it may taste similar to bovril! (I found the bovril in the end!) glad it worked ok for you.

well, I had a rettible night's sleep Sad I was awake for hours in the middle of the night. just couldn't sleep. I remember similar happening last time I tried 5:2 on fds . I didnt FEEL hungry, but could. not. sleep. Is this something that will pass as I get more used to fds.
I feel so, so tired and extremely grumpy this morning. And to top it off on weigh in this morning I weigh the same as yesterday morning Confused which in total is only 1lb down from Monday and I was planning on a more relaxed weekend with full or slightly over tdee which will no doubt see a gain meaning at this rate I will have gained weight in a week Sad Not impressed. I have been logging and weighing everything. Monday fd 497, Tues nfd 1535, Weds nfd 1537, Thurs fd 485. My tdee is around 2000 if I set to lightly active so I have been well under. Generally making healthy choices eg lots of veg, salad, lean protein, limited complex carbs and rare treats (two wafer biscuits on Monday) Along with greatly reduced snacking (still some fruit on occassion, working on this) Plus 1 x 6.5k run, 1 x body attack class and 1 long walk so far. Oh well, will hopefully manage to stay 1lb down by Monday. We shall see.
Body attack again today - I am looking forward to this ven though I still can't lift my arms fully following Tueday's session!
Good luck to all those on fast days today. Off to be grumpy whilst eating breakfast!Wink

applelolly · 27/04/2018 06:47

rettible?!? I'm that tired I cant even type!! Terrible obviously!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 27/04/2018 06:58

Aww apple that's rotten... theres nothing worse than trying to get to sleep. So you weigh on Monday rather than after your 2nd fd? Try and focus on the fact that you have lost 1lb though and hopefully bcf will have some excellent advice for you, maybe you need to eat closer to tdee on 1 day?

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 27/04/2018 07:03

2lbs off today Grin I'm thrilled although I didn't get to my mini goal of seeing 12s on the scale by the end of april, I am bang on 13 stone, I haven't been the toilet since weds TMI sorry and I think if I had been this morning then the scales might have just nipped under... oh well, I will get there in may Grin

Goof luck Fri weighers and faster's. My wedding anniversary today so a couple of glasses of fizz are in order later...

Homemadehopeful · 27/04/2018 07:15

Weigh in here and I am 2.6lbs down so feeling pleased with that.

Yesterday was a NFD and was a bit more carby than it should of been plus I was planning on no alcohol but my sister got the keys to her new house so DH and I went over and drank champagne and lager (lovely combination I know!!) We did cycle there but it is only about 10 mins max away along a gentle riverside cycle path so not exactly strenuous exercise!!

FD here again today. Will definitely just stick to two in future with perhaps a mini one thrown in as three in a week did feel a little non-stop. Anyway if I get today out of the way I can then have the weekend to look forward to 😁

Well done to all the losers and good luck to all the Friday FDers!

Gammeldragz · 27/04/2018 07:16

apple if you've been exercising as well, that could throw off the weight measurement because of muscle inflammation and holding on to water, could that be it? Have you taken measurements as well? Sometimes it can take a week for the deficit to show on the scales, so this week's hard work may well show next week. Please don't be disheartened, I'm sure it will move soon.

I'm 5lb down on the beginning of the week, but I'm sure Monday's weight will be several lbs higher after 3 NFD. Good incentive not to go crazy with my eating over the weekend though!

43 Wine happy anniversary!

applelolly · 27/04/2018 07:17

forty thanks. Well done on your loss. At the moment I'm weighing daily to try and learn more about how my body responds etc.. I am expecting some natural up and down fluctuations within that. Monday 16th I was 13st 4lb. Sat 21st (after second fd on Fri20th) I was 12st 12lb. Monday 23rd I was back to 13st1 after a bad weekend, but still 3lb down from Mon 16th. Tues 24th after fd1 this week I was down to 12st 12lb again, Weds back up to 13st0lb, Thurs down to 12st 13lb and the same again today after fd2 yesterday.Who knows! I suppose it is a combination of the fact that I found yesterday hard, am really tired and then there is nothing to show for it on the scale today!! Plus I am hovering around the 13 stone mark and really want to be in the 12s and to stay there!!! (yes, still very overweight but I am moving in the right direction!)

applelolly · 27/04/2018 07:22

cross posts home and gammel great losses both, well done.
gammell It Could be exercise/muscle related maybe (hopeful!)? Body attack was hard on my arm muscles especially and they are still sore today! I haven't been measuring but think I will.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 27/04/2018 08:17

Thanks gammel

apple I'd say wait and see, as Gammel says it could be retained water from all the exercise - but yes, get measuring as I bet your clothes are looser and you've lost inches? I know what you mean re: getting into the 12's, I was so hoping that would be today but it was not to be, but it'll be soon for us both Grin

NFD today and DH and DS want a chinese takeaway tonight - i can't say I'm that bothered (rather have a curry) but I'll concede to the majority - any ideas what best to have? DS and I would normally share bean curd with cashew nuts and some rice, but looking for some inspiration Smile I like spicy...

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 27/04/2018 08:18

fab SVs home and gammel Grin

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 27/04/2018 08:33

Makes sense Gammel
I don't have a massively sweet tooth but I do eat too much healthy food. Hoping I will loose lots to start with just through fasting. But am also trying to cut down on treats mainly wine! on NFDs.
Happy Friday everyone Smile

Hockneypool · 27/04/2018 08:34

As it’s my first week and only 5 days I wasn’t sure whether to weigh in or not but couldn’t resist looking and yay 2 lbs down. It’s a good start and I know it will go back up over the weekend.
Plan for next few days is keep busy and be mindful of what I’m eating.
Really enjoying hearing about everyone’s lives - it’s supportive and helpful.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 27/04/2018 08:49

Excellent SV hockney Grin

FriendlyGhost · 27/04/2018 08:52

Good luck to everyone on FDs today. Another NFD for me today and i’m making risotto tonight. My biggest problem is portion size so this will be a big test. I have done the shred this morning though so a good start at least.

WreckTangled · 27/04/2018 09:32

NFD today. I might do a mini fast tomorrow to make up for the five guys I'm having for lunch today. I'm not eating breakfast today though and dinner is quiche and salad so should still be within my TDEE.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 27/04/2018 10:06

you're eating five guys for lunch wreck Shock how many cals each guy Grin

Mmmmm I love risotto ghost enjoy

WreckTangled · 27/04/2018 10:07

Don't worry forty I like them lean Wink

WreckTangled · 27/04/2018 10:12

Ah shit just seen the calories in the burger Shock it'll be worth it though and I'll add in a fast day tomorrow to make up for it.

BigChocFrenzy · 27/04/2018 10:27

Gobble Absolutely no need eat below TDEE - they are maintenance days.
Weight loss comes from the FDs and then not eating back the deficit on NFDs, i.e. averaging around TDEE on NFDs

To stop snacking, make sure you have 3-4 decent-sized meals per day - you may need to up your meal size.
Boost protein to keep fuller for longer

cheshire Remind yourself you are worth more than someone else's leftovers
The kitchen has a bin and it's not you

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 27/04/2018 10:39

Well done on your SVs, 43, homemade, Gammel

Apple weight naturally fluctuates 2-3 lb due to varying amounts of undigested food, retained water, hormonal swings
These temporary blips can easily disguise the average 1lb fat loss over a week

Your body is not a computer with exact x in and y out every day - it has multiple complicated biological processes interacting all the time.

Weight loss happens over a period of weeks; the overall trend every 2-3 weeks should be downwards
Also, some people lose in fits & starts rather than linearly

You will do your head in trying to understand daily fluctuations

We always recommend concentrating on a weigh-in the morning after FD2 and only under consistent conditions:
naked first thing after loo, but before eating /drinking
scales on a hard level surface, not carpet, always in the same position

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 27/04/2018 10:40

Yum, I like lean guys grilled with garlic & lemon

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 27/04/2018 10:44

Happy Anniversary, 43 Thanks
Drink plenty of water, especially if you are a bit constipated - it will help flush things out and move you into the 12 stone somethings

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 27/04/2018 10:59

Fasting tends to increase alertness, at least while your body is adapting.
(it makes evolutionary sense, when game is scarce, becoming more alert to help hunt more)
It can affect FD sleep - People vary a lot in how long adaption takes, but good habits can reduce the effect.

Sleep Tips
+ No screens - TV, phone, games etc - at least 1 hr before bed
The blue light suppresses the secretion of melatonin, a hormone that influences circadian rhythms and promotes sleep.

  • No caffeine - coffee, espresso, coke etc - in the 8 hrs before bed
  • Try to avoid exercise in the 3 hrs before bed, other than a gentle 20 mins walk. If you can only train evenings, then try to do so as early as possible.
  • Ensure bedroom is dark (cover even an alarm light), quiet, comfy temperature, comfy bedding & nightwear
  • Keep a regular daily bedtime and routine, e.g. bath at 10 and unwind Longterm, a routine trains your body to prepare for sleep
  • Aim for 15 mins outside daily, ideally when the sun pops out
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 27/04/2018 11:00

Also, stay within NHS alcohol limits on NFDs - on FDs, no alcohol at all, of course

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 27/04/2018 11:21

Thanks bcf I'm drinking loads (I think) but will up it a little more.