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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 76: Your body needn‘t be a temple, but join us to stop it being a junky drive-thru.

989 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2018 23:10

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
BigChocFrenzy · 13/05/2018 13:38

no alcohol or junk on FDs < spanks iPad soundly >

OP posts:
quackingduck222 · 13/05/2018 14:24

Ah thanks everyone! I did it, and I enjoyed it too. Unlike my last one where I wanted to cry the whole way round.

Knocked 2 mins off my time and managed it in 1hr 10. Super chuffed with that.

Anyone who fancies giving it a go definitely do. I was so unfit and couldn’t do 30 seconds when I started the C25K. I never thought I’d be doing 10ks.

calzone · 13/05/2018 14:33

Ooh well done quacking!! 💐

I’ve just started c25k but derailed with a throat infection.

I will get back on it though.

Clutterfreeintraining · 13/05/2018 15:18

Amazing, quacking!! So many of my friends are runners but just the thought of it makes me want to cry Blush
Thank you bigchoc Smile
Alcohol is fine because I don’t really drink at home. Junk food, on the other hand, is a totally different story. And snacking. My eating habits are way out of control but I feel like I’m finally starting to get a grip on it.
Last time, I didn’t really have a target weight but my goal was to lose weight for a big trip and then continue once I got back but I never quite got back into it. I have approx 5 stone to lose (lost 2 1/2 last time and put 2 back on).
Today has been ok. I’m really hungry now and have done a lot of annoying household jobs that have been on my list for a very long time, to try and distract myself. Roll on 5 o’clock Grin

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 13/05/2018 15:22

Nice work quacking very impressive
Nfd here today, skipped breakfast (as always) then had lunch out, I really fancied a jacket spud with tuna mayo and salad, it was delicious. Think we are having breaded chicken and huge salad for dinner, I haven't logged it in mfp (trying to stop on nfds) but guess I'm happily within tdee of 1800 Smile

Welcome clutter I was exactly the same as you 12 weeks ago and I've lost 16lbs to date.... good luck with it Grin

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 13/05/2018 15:23

Oh and I would confirm the no snacking rule is essential

Clutterfreeintraining · 13/05/2018 15:25

What I’m finding really difficult is managing FDs on work days. I’m a cm and the job is very stressful at the moment which makes me reach for food. Weekends are much easier because life is so much calmer but weekends are when I like to catch up with family and friends which usually includes some form of eating Grin

Clutterfreeintraining · 13/05/2018 15:27

Thank you, forty! And wow, well done Shock
Yes, snacking is a weakness and I know it needs cutting out.

WreckTangled · 13/05/2018 15:29

I had a biggish lunch and am making soup with dd for dinner so reckon it'll be a mini fast which will make up for yesterday Grin

WreckTangled · 13/05/2018 15:29

Well done forty! I've got a crazy friend who's an ultra runner

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 13/05/2018 16:09

It wasn't me wreck I can't take any glory from quacking Grin

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 13/05/2018 16:13

clutter that does sound difficult, someone more knowledgeable will be able to give you more advice (bcf) but is there a possibility of doing mini fds during the week (1000cals) and nfds over the weekend? Although I'm not sure how many you would need to do?

WreckTangled · 13/05/2018 16:30

Oh sorry GrinBlush

BigChocFrenzy · 13/05/2018 16:38

Brilliant, duck you nailed it and a running pb NSV too

clutter On FDs, do you snack ? - that includes even "healthy" snacks, e.g. grabbing a piece of fruit, obviously avoid biscuits & cake on NFDs
Snacking / grazing would increase your overall hunger.

Many folk find it easier to save all the FD calories for supper, or at most have lunch & supper
That makes life simpler, knowing you can't have anything in between
So you need to think of non-food ways to reduce stress during your work

I recommend a zero-tolerance policy towards snacks / grazing, on FDs, NFDs and even at weekends, to zap the habit properly,
as it sounds a major cause of your weight problems

If you snack because you are too hungry, rather than stressed, then you could try 800 cal FDs - since you have 5 stone to lose, your TDEE should be quite high, even sedentary
However, same rules apply as for FDs: have 2-3 meals, no snacks between, no junk at all

OP posts:
hoochymama1 · 13/05/2018 16:50

Hello Smile can I join in?

I've been lurking for weeks and weeks.

Started this WOE about eight weeks ago and found this thread. You are all so lovely and supportive, and I have learned such a lot.

Have lost about 7lb. Am 5'6" started off 11stone, found it hard to lose weight due to menopause, and nothing has worked before this. Would love to be about 9stone 10lb ish.

Doing FD's on my busy days at work. Finding keeping liquids up is good, and the penny has just dropped about eating sensibly on NFD's and NOT SNACKING Grin

But, I find I have so much energy on this, and foods are not 'naughty' any more as I can eat on NFDs. Just learning that I may be eating too much on NFDs so maybe need to do a bit of MFP again.

BCF I have recently been having big headaches after B2B FDs, which sometimes last a couple of days. More water needed, or is there anything else I could try?

Thank you Smile

Pinkvici22 · 13/05/2018 17:06

Well 2nd weigh in for me...stayed the same. Was really grumpy but went out for a long run and feeling motivated to really push for a 2lb loss this week.

calzone · 13/05/2018 17:14

I’m eating much more mindfully this week with my new mindset.

Today is a NFD.....

So far I’ve had

Weetabix with fruit and yoghurt
Salmon fillets with lambs lettuce

Dinner will be spaghetti bolognaise which I’ve padded out with lentils and turkey mince instead of beef. And a big salad.
And maybe an ice lolly.

Clutterfreeintraining · 13/05/2018 18:19

Thanks, bigchoc.
When I first started, I was having 3 (very) small meals because I didn’t think it would be possible for me to get through a few hours without eating. Now, I try to hold out til teatime but often give in about 3/4ish.
Thanks for the advice. I’m going to focus on no snacking and try to be more organised with the children’s food - I end up picking when I’m making the sandwiches after school so maybe if I make them in the morning or even the night before, there’ll be less opportunity/temptation, hopefully!!

BigChocFrenzy · 13/05/2018 18:35

Welcome, hoochy Smile
I'm glad you are enjoying the WOE

I'm another who gained after meno and I found nothing else worked, except fasting
Loss is slower for us though than for the young'uns and we have to cut back on sweet junk especially, compared to before.

Excellent that you are working to zap the snack habit - even "healthy" ones - and also looking at NFDs.
One week on mfp can be a good reality check and highlight any hidden calorie bombs - sweet treats & booze soon add up - or just whether you need to watch portion size.

Also watch the amount of mayo / creamy sauces / dressings / dips

Meno can lower TDEE more abruptly than changes over the previous decades, so check your TDEE.

Headaches after b2b:

  • Have a teasp Marmite mid-morning and mid-afternoon on each FD

  • Boost protein both days and cut out fruit, fruit juice, sugary breakfast cereals & cereal bars

  • Have a substantial low GI breakfast the following NFD, with plenty of protein, some carbs & fat e.g. natural pnut butter or sardines on wholegrain toast
    Even if you usually skip breakfast.

  • If you have only 1 FD meal, try having lunch & supper instead, both days

  • If all the above measures don't work, your body may simply find b2bs too much loading - most 5:2ers can't do them, including many old 5:2 hands, like talkinpeace & I !

It may be that my problem with b2bs is my high exercise level; even if I have FD2 as a restday, my body needs to refuel more.

Or, it might be an issue for post-meno women, because our hormonal balance is quite different and our bodies are not so good at fat-burning.

We need feedback from a lot of post-meno women, before we can say what fasting system suits us best, if it can be generalised.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 13/05/2018 18:37

clutter I always recommend women to value themselves enough to have proper meals of their own:
"the kitchen has a bin and it's not you"

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 13/05/2018 18:41

pink It's quite usual to sts after a big loss and anyway, water blips can easily hide a 1lb fat loss.
So relax and be patient.
1lb weekly loss is the longterm average rather than w, unless you have a lot to lose

However, if you find after a few weeks more that you had a good initial loss, but haven"r progressed much since then,
I recommend you check your NFDs, in case you are eating back nearly / all the FD deficit

OP posts:
CheshireSplat · 13/05/2018 18:52

Here's another one to go with BCF 's bin saying: better to go in the waste bin, than in the waist line....

CheshireSplat · 13/05/2018 18:53

Grrrrr, "on the waist line" not "in the waist line".

Pinkvici22 · 13/05/2018 19:24

Thanks BCF...I’m aiming for another 8lbs (I’ve got 10 weeks) and maybe a little more after that.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/05/2018 19:52

Loss often slows down a lot as you near goal

OP posts: