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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 76: Your body needn‘t be a temple, but join us to stop it being a junky drive-thru.

989 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2018 23:10

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
BigChocFrenzy · 12/05/2018 09:24

Well done on your SV, friendly
You are nearly into the 9 stone somethings, which will be a really good milestone.

OP posts:
littleladylawyer · 12/05/2018 09:37

smiled and fortythree I wish I could say I made it but it's from Sainsbury's! 420 cal for the whole thing! https://www.nodoughpizza.com/

fortythree Mediterranean and Thai sound delish birthday meals. I'm so impressed by your Friday fasting! I've been flirting with the idea of weekend fasting but social and family events make it tricky- I want to be able to enjoy these things after working hard in the week but it's definitely my downfall calorie wise!

Thanks bigchoc, useful pizza tips. I think my motto should be 'would an Italian eat it?'- they would be outraged at a stuffed crust deep pan, and always seem to have lots of salady type sides

noideawhattocallmyself · 12/05/2018 10:26

weighed today and another 2lb down - yay.
Well done everyone on your SV and NSV. I've set myself some little targets - I've just hit 7lb off so firstly keep that off. The next would be to drop into the next stone (5lb to go) and then to no longer be obese (2lb after that).
funny I'm looking forward to being 'just' overweight :)
I've been a little constipated this week despite loads of water - anything else I can do to keep everything moving?
Also I don't seem to be as hungry on NFD now I've stopped snacking - is this normal????
Re: Pizza - I make my own using wraps as a pizza base - it's like and incredibly thin base and you can control what goes on it.
Happy weekend everyone.....

WreckTangled · 12/05/2018 11:00

The pizza looks delicious!

I MFP all my NFD and I have been under all of them apart from one bank holiday day where I wasn't much over. I rarely drink and have been trying really hard to avoid the sweet treats, I don't think I've had any all week.

BigChocFrenzy · 12/05/2018 12:43

Well done on your SV, NoIdea

Yes, snacks keep insulin raised, which increases overall hunger and hence usually increases total daily intake too.
Snacks also hinder fat-burning
So, it's an important NSV if you are learning to cut them out

That's exactly right, lawyer Italians don't have huge portions of pizza - or of pasta
These are typically one small course in a meal which would include salad, veg, fruit

OP posts:
WreckTangled · 12/05/2018 13:34

I've binged. Going to do an extra fast day tomorrow to make up for it Blush

CheshireSplat · 12/05/2018 13:39

Thanks Bug for your detailed response. I think we're quite similar, I'm just slightly shorter. I was always about 1/2 stone to 2/3 stone overweight, got to just about not overweight for my wedding and then have hovered around 1 - 1 1/2 stone overweight after children.

I've had a fab eating week. Have lost 1 lb each day of NFDs so really think I'm nailing it. I've taken all of BCF and TiP's on board and haven't snacked at all this week. I was 10 stone 9 1/4 this morning!!!!

I'm really changing my viewpoint and really considering whether I'm hungry or not.

DH loves cooking and without really realising it, I think I've been worried about upsetting him if I don't eat what he makes. But last night was great - we had a massive starter, so decided to have a break whilst we watched The Bridge and to have our main course at 10. When it got to 10 I was yawning my head off, and we both admitted we weren't that hungry and decided to have our main course tonight. It sounds so simple but it's a big change for us - revolutionary.

Also, I think deep down I've always associated being a bon viveur with being fun and that involves eating and drinking and people who don't relax around food are uptight. Clearly that seems stupid!!!

calzone · 12/05/2018 13:39

My DH, who’s an Italian chef 😀😀, would agree with you all and is horrified at the notion of stuffed crust pizza 🤣🤣

Don’t even get him started on pineapple on a pizza!!

I’m going to see if he will make me a cauliflower crust pizza for dinner.

I’m not feeling well today so I’m in bed and only had a yoghurt.

CheshireSplat · 12/05/2018 13:42

Wreck what's happened?

calzone · 12/05/2018 13:43

Cheshire.....I’m the same.

Everything involving fun involves food.

Let’s go to the cinema- sweets and popcorn.

Let’s go for a walk - coffee shop and cake

Anniversary- cocktails and dinner, brunch, gin and tonic etc etc

I need to break the cycle. My family have asked me to stop feeding them. 🙈🙈

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 12/05/2018 14:11

Oh no wreck what's triggered you? Hope you don't beat yourself up about it, just eat healthily rest of the day and have your planned fd tomorrow Flowers

Excellent sv cheshire a lb for each nfd? 5lb? That's awesome Grin I'm also changing that mindset that everything revolves around food and drink, although the drink is harder to break at the moment Shock

Hope you feel better soon calzone

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 12/05/2018 14:12

Sorry... forgot to say well done on your sv noidea Smile

WreckTangled · 12/05/2018 14:39

I think it's because I didn't lose much so I thought fuck it. Then my sugar level went low (diabetic) so I ate everything in sight!

BigChocFrenzy · 12/05/2018 15:58

I hope you feel better soon, calzone and that your chef DH produces a delic cauli pizza.

That's a great week of SVs, cheshire
and some really important healthy habits NSVs - no snacking and no eating when you aren*t hungry
*
That's good to haul things back asap after a binge, wreck
Hardly anyone loses every week and if you are T1, your loss is likely to be slower than average.
Try to relax about this and avoid the "oh sod it" reaction that makes things tougher the next day

OP posts:
WreckTangled · 12/05/2018 16:02

Thanks. I'm going to goodwood in a few weeks so that'll spur me on!

quackingduck222 · 12/05/2018 20:26

Good evening everyone I hope everyone is having a good weekend.

I’ve been a bit anxious today ahead of my 10k tomorrow. I’ve been a bit of track the last couple of days due to DHs Birthday and the massive chocolate cake I made. Will jump back on the fasting wagon Tuesday.

Sorry to hear that Tangled, please don’t beat yourself up about it. hopefully you can draw a line under it and move forward. Xx

Fantastic SV noidea.

LittleLady - Glad you found your pizza it looks really good. No sign of it in Asda yet.

Fantastic SV ghost, so close to the 9s now!

43 - Also big well done to you, wow 16lbs is loads.

Good luck to anyone fasting this weekend.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 12/05/2018 21:04

Thanks quacking and good luck for 10k... hope you manage to relax and enjoy it, let us know how you get on Grin I'm in awe of anyone that can run for longer than 30secs Blush

BigChocFrenzy · 13/05/2018 07:44

Morning all Smile

Good luck with you 10k today, duck
We are all expecting your report on this Wink

OP posts:
noideawhattocallmyself · 13/05/2018 10:13

Good Luck with the 10K Duck. I'm in awe! Don't think I could run more than the length of me! :)

littleladylawyer · 13/05/2018 10:46

Hope everyone's enjoying the weekend.

Well done cheshire, I know exactly what you mean about relaxing with food and drink being part of living the good life. I think the beauty of 5:2 is having that freedom to enjoy and indulge when you really want to without guilt!

calzone sorry you're not feeling too good. Lucky you having an Italian chef dh- you must have willpower of steel to resist his cooking on a fd!

wreck don't beat yourself up- you've recognised what's happened and are making up for it.

Good luck today quacking, let us know how it goes!

I had a lovely day yesterday, family children's bday party then out for lunch with brother, then out for dinner and cocktails with DH and friends. Was well over tdee so I've decided to do my first ever weekend fd today!

calzone · 13/05/2018 11:06

NFD today

B....2 weetabix
Strawberries
Blueberries
Muller light

HLBug · 13/05/2018 11:10

Good luck today duck! It's pouring down here so I hope you have better weather.

bluerunningshoes · 13/05/2018 11:22

good luck with the 10k

have had an okish day yesterday despite cake & asparagus feast.

light breakfast of bacon (the medallion kind) and egg & fat free yoghurt & berries.
no lunch.
some cake (small pieces).
then dinner only one slice of ham, 1 small potato, one tablespoon butter and a considerable pile of steamed white asparagus. that was really tasty.
will do a mini tomorrow (full fd difficult with visitors) and then plan the next fd wednesday and friday.

Clutterfreeintraining · 13/05/2018 12:10

Hi everyone!
Can I sneak in quietly please?
I’ve joined your threads before and did well for 6 months but that was 3 years ago and almost all the weight is back on. I’ve had a couple of half-arsed attempts to get back on the wagon but they only last a day, max. The sight of my reflection in the mirror is making me very unhappy. As are the lovely clothes in my cupboard that are far too small for me Sad so I need to get on with it and do something about it rather than avoiding mirrors and stuffing my face!!
Today is my first FD. I’ve been up for 4 hours and have another 5 hours before I’m going to eat tea so nearly halfway - I can do this!!
I’ve upped my water intake over the last two weeks and am pretty much up to 2ltrs a day. I’ve weighed myself this morning and it’s not quite as horrendous as my reflection would have me believe but still pretty bad.
Ds and I are off on hols in 5 weeks and I’d love to lose 12lbs by then to get me into the next stone bracket. That’s maybe a bit optimistic and I won’t be disheartened if I don’t get it by a certain date.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/05/2018 13:37

Welcome, clutter Smile
That's good you're drinking a lot of water

This time when you reach goal, decide on a definite lifetime maintenance plan, so you never have to lose this weight again
"if you return to your old WOE, hen you return to your old waist & weight"

What we've also found important the last few years, to help loss:

  • No snacking between meals, ever
  • Keep within NHS alcohol limits on NFDs - no alcohol or junk or FDs

How is your 1st FD going ?

OP posts: