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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 76: Your body needn‘t be a temple, but join us to stop it being a junky drive-thru.

989 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2018 23:10

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Clearskies99 · 10/05/2018 15:03

Fasting today < tiptoes back into thread after long absence>

frieda909 · 10/05/2018 15:35

Really struggling today! Definitely did not get enough sleep, which combined with spin class this morning is making me exhausted and extra hungry! I’ve also tried to save more calories for dinner this time as on Tues I felt really miserable between dinner and bedtime. Plus I had some pretty intense meetings to get through today which was hard on an empty stomach.

Just had a bovril which has perked me up a bit, and I’m drinking so much water and tea that I’m running to the loo what feels like every five minutes. Counting down the seconds until home (and dinner) time now!

snailhunter · 10/05/2018 16:07

You can do it, frieda! Remember the mantra: 'I can have it tomorrow...'

Clearskies99 · 10/05/2018 16:10

Hope the bovril and lots of water help. Stay strong frieda. Lack of sleep is awful on a FD. Hope you have a delicious FD meal planned for later, followed by an early night!

calzone · 10/05/2018 16:38

Hi everyone

I’m a bit new to this but going to give it a go.

I was 12 stone 8 lb on Tuesday morning.

I fasted on Tuesday.

Yesterday I ate food that was Slimming World friendly but didn’t snack or have any treats.

I’m also running more and having a go at c25k.

I weighed this morning and I’m 12 stone 3lbs.

I’m in the zone but need to keep going.

frieda909 · 10/05/2018 16:51

Thanks guys, posting here really does help doesn’t it? I’ve definitely learned my lesson about sleep and will be getting much more of it from now on, especially before a fast day! Interesting to see how much my instincts are to reach for food when I’m tired.

Prawns, brown rice and broccoli waiting for me at home, followed by an early night for sure!

Sounds like you’re doing great calzone! I’m thinking of weighing myself tomorrow but not sure if it’s too early. Might have a sneaky peek but wait until next week to log a new weight in MFP!

PopGoesTheWeaz · 10/05/2018 18:25

Totally understand about reaching for food when tired. I stay up late on a regular basis (midnight ish) for no real reason except that I'm trying to maximise grown up time. But realised I was having a sugary snack at like 10:30 when my body was trying to tell me it's time for bed!

I've been running a lot recently and just spending more time outside as the weather's been nice, so really exhausted by 10:30 now and trying to not fall into the snack-to-stay-up-for-no-reason trap

BigChocFrenzy · 10/05/2018 19:12

Welcome, calzone Smile
and well done on your SV. Good start.

SW food is fine on NFDs - 5:2 works with any food preference that has actual meals:
Mediterranean, low carb, SW, WW, veggie, vegan, ethnic, trad British …

calzone, fried Weight naturally varies a couple of lb due to undigested food, hormonal swings, retained water variations etc
So it's best to weigh weekly, 1st thing after loo on the morning after FD2, to avoid being derailed by temporary blips.
Even then, best to look at the trend over every 2-3 weeks, to really judge progress

pop Important "rule" we've found: NO snacking / grazing between meals
Snacks - even "healthy" ones like fruit - keep insulin raised, increase hunger and hinder fat burning

Have any fruit, alcohol, lattes, other treats only as part of a meal

OP posts:
bluerunningshoes · 10/05/2018 19:20

thinking of putting in a mini tomorrow, as have a visitor coming from germany. with a suitcase full of white asparagus.
but then again, if I stick to mainly asparagus and go easy on the potatoes, ham and butter...

WreckTangled · 10/05/2018 19:55

Came in at TDEE today. Going out for brunch tomorrow I have no idea of the calories in pancakes with bacon. I reckon I can work it out though.

Well done those fasting, nearly bedtime! I always go to bed early on a fast day.

Clearskies99 · 10/05/2018 19:59

Back to 5:2 with renewed determination after a stressful /return to old eating habits/weight gain winter of discontent. Now on week 4 of Mediterranean style food, zero snacking, zero sugar /refined carbs and restarted 5:2 last week. So far going well, 11 lbs down in last 4 weeks but have a long way to go to get into a healthy weight zone.

I need to do it for good this time for my health's sake - high risk of T2D, strokes etc and I am the dreaded apple shape. Good to be back on this supportive, motivating thread and look forward to getting to know you all and maybe seeing some familiar names

WreckTangled · 10/05/2018 20:06

When I worked in primary care we ran a pre-diabetes clinic and one of our patients completely reversed his pre-diabetes by changing to this WOE. I've never seen a persons hba1c drop so quickly and significantly. As someone who has type one diabetes all I can say to those high risk of developing type 2 is to do whatever you can to prevent it, you'll never regret it ⭐️

snailhunter · 10/05/2018 20:19

Hello clear and welcome calzone! Yes, this is a lovely thread. No judgement, just encouragement! I've been on here since Jan and I've gone down from 10st 13lb to 9st 11lb - goal weight is 9st 7lb. Have also lost five inches off my waist which has honestly made more difference to me than the number on the scale - I can fit comfortably into my lovely jeans and trousers and skirts again.

Kitchen closed for me tonight on around 550, I reckon. I had a couple of slices of pancetta around my salmon fillet which added 70 cals but were SO DELICIOUS.

littleladylawyer · 10/05/2018 20:43

Well done frieda, snail and any other Thursday fasters- hope you've all had a good day and satisfying dinner.

Welcome calzone and welcome back clear.

Good nfd here, although it seems like the depo injection bloat has arrived today rather than yesterday. Feel all bulgy and squishy, but did 15,000 steps and a 30 min cardio/strength hiit session so hopefully if I keep gouging the water it will bugger off soon!

HLBug · 10/05/2018 20:50

blue I think I'm having dejavu - have you smuggled asparagus into the country before?! Or am I going mad?

Anyway, I'm just popping on to say that "chilling the flip out" has been going marvellously the last few days, and today I actually weighed in at goal weight Shock Totally unexpected but there you go - 8st 12lbs successfully achieved. And I've definitely decided to stop here and focus on toning up rather than loosing any more.

My weight when I started this WOL last July was 12st 12lbs, so that's 4 stone lost in less than a year and my BMI has gone down from 30.7 (obese) to a nicely healthy 21.1. My first ultimate goal was 10st 3lb which was wedding day weight - I've never before now seen a '9' as the first number on the scales...never mind a blooming '8'!

So, BCF what the heck do I do now?! If i move to doing two 800 calorie FDs can I still do a B2B? Or would 6:1 with a 500 cal day be better? Eek! Really was never convinced I'd get to this point. Wow. Big, big wow.

WreckTangled · 10/05/2018 20:54

Wowee that's amazing! Well done to you 🙌🏼🙌🏼💪🏽

HLBug · 10/05/2018 20:56

Oh and while I'm on doing speeches, can I also say a massive thank you to you BCF. The fact you give up your time to post on this thread and keep us all going really is just amazing and I'm so thankful for all the advice you've given me and patience you've shown.

If I knew you in RL I'd send you a big bunch of flowers as a thank you, but unfortunately virtual ones will need to do for now ThanksThanksThanksThanksThanksThanksThanks

Thanks also to everyone else who is here giving support be it on a FD or NFD. I know for certain that I'd have given up before now if wasn't for you all and this thread giving me some accountability. Un-mumsnet hugs to you all Smile

bluerunningshoes · 10/05/2018 21:07

whohoo bug what a great achievement!

there are many german expats who crave white asparagus this time of year. it's one of the few german things (apart from woodruff flavoured sweets) that I crave from when I lived there.

OohMrDarcy · 10/05/2018 21:11

Evening all

Haven't been around this week as I set myself a bit of a challenge...I love the support of this thread, but I'm also aware that there are times when I'm not able to post and need to be able to cope on my own. So... this week I've banned myself from posting! Blush

I've done my first ever b2b today and yesterday which was easy to be honest - don't know how or why, but circumstances made it impossible to get 2 x FDs in otherwise. Tomorrow morning shall show me if my little experiment has worked or if I need to make sure I'm always available to the thread until I'm further along the road, either way is fine - but its all part of my making this my permanent WOE.

littleladylawyer · 10/05/2018 21:14

Wooo congratulations Bug! That amazing and you should be so proud. I think maintenance is a bit trial and error, I still do 2 500 days because I want to health benefits and I have a very low tdee so it's easy to exceed it massively with meals out/ socialising. Whatever you decide I hope you'll be sticking around on the thread Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 10/05/2018 21:57

Welcome back, clear
and well done on 4 good weeks and an encouraging SV

OP posts:
calzone · 10/05/2018 22:16

Ooh HLBug.....amazing victory!!!!

Well done!

BigChocFrenzy · 10/05/2018 22:18

Congratulations on reaching goal, bug, 4 stone lost and so much lower than your original goal ThanksStar
Always brilliant when someone posts their success Grin and you worked hard for this
Good to hear you found the threads helpful

Maintenance is very individual and you can tweak it to suit your bod & preferences

I suggest you try your fav b2b with 800 FDs for a few weeks, to make sure after losing such an amount that you stay securely within Happy Weight Range (allow a range of say 4-5lb either side of goal)
After this, you may find that 6:1 with a single 500 or 800 FD suffices - depends mainly on your NFDs

Whatever your maintenance fasting WOL, I recommend these good habits:

(Longterm) Maintenance:.
If you return to your old WOE, your return to your old weight & waist

  • Keep up some form of regular fasting
  • Weigh regularly, at least weekly If you exceed Happy Range, return immediately to full 5:2
  • NO snacks or grazing, ever
  • Keep within NHS alcohol limits
  • Keep sweet / carby / alcohol treats to sensible amounts, total at most 20% of weekly calories
  • Drink lots of water +Eat lots of veg of different colours, but no more than 2 portions fruit daily
  • Regularly include beans, lentils, peas, plain yoghurt.
  • Breaks for vacation are fine, but before you start, note in your calendar the day you will return to plan and have your next FD.
OP posts:
calzone · 10/05/2018 22:19

@raisedbyguineapigs...... we can discuss fasting and sw on this thread.

😀😀😀

BigChocFrenzy · 10/05/2018 22:28

Well done on your b2b, MrD

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