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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 76: Your body needn‘t be a temple, but join us to stop it being a junky drive-thru.

989 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2018 23:10

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
HLBug · 09/05/2018 19:48

B2B done Smile c.620 calories yesterday but closer to 700 today. It's been a toughie this week and I was sooo tempted to give up today and have a NFD instead. Very happy that I managed to continue on - the thought of being done now for the week has definitely helped keep me going. Well done to everyone else who has completed today.

FriendlyGhost · 09/05/2018 19:53

FD done here and I managed to last until dinner with nothing. I wasn’t even that hungry so either the hot weather is helping or my body’s getting used to things. I actually found myself looking forward to today. I think it’s because i’m terrible with eating too much and grazing so i find on FDs I feel more in control of my eating.
Hope you made it to the class Cheshire.
Fennel I would have celebrated but then that’s why I still don’t fit most of my clothes!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 09/05/2018 19:53

Aww shucks Cheshire thanks for saying that Grin

Go for dinner fennel and celebrate, plan fd tomorrow

Well done weds fasters, kitchen closed here on 524cals. In the end things conspired against me (husband late homw from work so no car and no one to have ds) and I didn't go to the walking group although I had psyched myself up to go! Will try next weds, thanks for the words of encouragement Smile

Well done resisting the takeaway quacking

BigChocFrenzy · 09/05/2018 20:38

Well done fasters, especially those who had a tough day - be proud you persisted and nailed it Smile

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 09/05/2018 20:39

Well done for sticking to your b2b, bug Now you've the rest of the week to relax

OP posts:
PopGoesTheWeaz · 09/05/2018 21:01

So after not feeling particularly hungry all day, come dinner time I was hugely hungry. I've just scarfed down my dinner (homemade saag paneer, half cup of rice). Delicious, but I'm still so hungry. Sitting on my hands, watching Suits and will wait until end of episode to see if still hungry then. Am under 500 so have some wiggle room, I just am worried about opening the floodgates

bluerunningshoes · 09/05/2018 21:13

pop how about a mug of boullion?
then teethbrushing?

BigChocFrenzy · 09/05/2018 21:13

At this stage, I'd play safe and clean your teeth - that usually stops temptation

OP posts:
NoUnderpantsinSpace · 09/05/2018 21:34

Well, I have been taking the antibiotics and I don’t seem to be suffering so much anymore, yay! So I am looking forward to being healthy (ish) —and having thrush— in a few days.

I have also cut out sugar. All kinds of sweet treats are being avoided and I’ve been eating lightly - just not terribly interested in food right now...- but with a good mix of protein and salad veg so I’m feeling quietly pleased with myself.

It might sound kind of dumb or corny but knowing that Sugar is possibly ruining my gut health is certainly helping me stay away.

NoUnderpantsinSpace · 09/05/2018 21:37

And I’m sorry I haven’t got the energy to go back and name check but we’ll done to all the fasters today!!

And thanks as always to all for all th positive and encouraging posts. Reading the success and NSV and everything is really helpful.

MazDazzle · 09/05/2018 21:50

Wrote a post and lost it. How annoying!

Nailed day 2 of b2b. Wasn’t hungry at all. Haven’t stopped all day, so maybe that’s something to do with it. Will weigh in tomorrow to see the extent of holiday/bank holiday weekend gain.

Cracking NSV today. Bumped into someone I hadn’t seen for a while and they commented on how slim I looked - I was wearing a tent like hoody with only my moonface and chunky legs visible!

Well done to all of those who fasted today, especially those who’ve soldiered on when it’s been tough. Well done too to those who’ve have successful NFDs as craxkinfthose is a big part of it!

PopGoesTheWeaz · 09/05/2018 21:56

Ha! Just skimmed a bit of the poo thread and my appetite has disappeared. Sorted!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 09/05/2018 22:04

Ha ha pop that'll do it Envy

yumyumpoppycat · 10/05/2018 00:33

Forty really hope you join the walking group and meet some nice people to walk with - could be really good fun. Good luck with fast.

Thanks Quacking and choc - I did better than I realised! That is a nice bit of wiggle room for success with mini fast isn't it - will try and stick closer to 800 though.

My non fast day wasn't a disaster but I have eaten a lot - scales will be interesting tomorrow.

yumyumpoppycat · 10/05/2018 00:36

Well done on NSV Maz!

Nounderpants not dumb at all - sugar is my problem too, I haven't been brave enough (not the right word but you know what I mean) to just say right no sugar.

Homemadehopeful · 10/05/2018 05:50

Hope you went with the dinner with DH fennel. As others have said you can always fast another day!!

Maz that has happened to me a couple of times, so annoying!! And well done on the NSV Grin

pop hope you managed to stick out the last part of the evening

I would really like a walking group 43 and I definitely think it is the type of thing that can be done on your own. Hopefully you will make it next week.

Well done to all the fasters. Feeling very chuffed here as after a weekend of over indulging a little I had a good FD Tues and a bonus mini yesterday coming in at around 700 calories so really hoping to see a shift on the scales tomorrow!

Will aim for around 1200 - 1300 cals today plus have a body balance class booked for this evening.

Good luck to any Thurs fasters!

Pinkvici22 · 10/05/2018 06:18

Not a great b2b. Didn’t have any proper meals, just snacks which equates to about 620 on first day and 700 yesterday. I’ll do a NFD today and be more sensible. Bit worried now as I’ve been so busy in work I haven’t got much exercise in either.

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 10/05/2018 07:44

Week 4 for me of first ever 5:2.
Kitchen closed yesterday on FD1 at 480 - but just weighed in and have gained 4lbs! So exasperating.

I have still lost overall since being at my heaviest. And I know about the fluctuations and am a bit pre-menstural here but it's quite disheartening. Confused

frieda909 · 10/05/2018 08:04

Just checking in for my second ever FD! I’ve just got back from an early morning spin class, so slightly nervous as that normally makes me much more hungry for the rest of the day. Will see how it goes!

MazDazzle · 10/05/2018 08:54

Weighed in after my b2b and I’m 2lb heavier than I was prior to a week’s holiday and the long weekend. That’s nothing and it’ll shift in no time.

Our next holiday is with the kids at an all inclusive resort. Much harder to stay on track there, but I’ll try. Planning 2 meals a day, so either skipping breakfast or lunch and only having dessert twice a week. Sounds good in theory!

snailhunter · 10/05/2018 09:59

Well done all yesterday's fasters! I'm checking in for today. Just been for gorgeous walk through the woods with the dog - thousands of bluebells are out and it's just beautiful. Plan for today is nothing till dinner as usual, then salmon with lots of veg and Greek yog with lots of berries.

noideawhattocallmyself · 10/05/2018 10:54

Managed my meal out - had biryani and a naan - carb central but think with just miso for lunch I just managed to stay around TDEE.
Will aim for just below today (just in case) and FD tomorrow.
Good luck and well done everyone!!

PopGoesTheWeaz · 10/05/2018 10:56

Thanks everyone for your help yesterday. As I said, the poo thread totally killed my appetite (and really, normally I'm not too squeamish so maybe this is something I can cultivate!) so kitchen closed yesterday at 441. Did my 10K this morning and have broken fast a bit earlier than usual with a sensible bowl of cornflakes.

I normally only weigh in once a week, morning after my second fast but cheated last night and peaked and was over last week's weigh in which was a bit disheartening. BUT had my official weigh-in this morning and was down another half kilo. Better though is I've lost 2 inches on my waist since starting this up again 3.5 weeks ago which I'm really pleased about. Unfortunately my chest is shrinking at an alarming rate, but I'm willing to make that sacrifice. Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 10/05/2018 12:16

Public holiday in Germany, which means all shop are closed Sad
… and it is a much rainier 19C instead of sunny 28C Sad
Oh well, a good day for tidying up my cellar, then off to the gym, which usually cheers me up Smile

I'll have an FD too
Who's fasting ?

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 10/05/2018 12:20

That's good the antibiotics are working, underpants

With antibiotics, it is even more important to cut back as much as you can on added sugar,
because antibiotics can really bugger up the gut flora, which can lead later to candida overgrowth, slowing of metabolism and weight gain

Remember, US farmers - in particular - use antibiotics for quick weight gain in their animals

Well done on your SV and excellent waist NSV, pop
Your weight can be 2-3 lb more after supper than in morning.

To avoid discouraging and misleading blips, it's important to weigh under consistent conditions, for which 1st thing in the morning is best, naked and after loo but before eating or drinking anything

Reading poo threads to avoid FD hunger … is a new trick here ! GrinGrin

smiled You could easily gain a few lb before / during totm, so this may just be temporary
However, I recommend you mfp for a week to check your NFDs are around TDEE

A good initial loss, followed by no progress, or partial regain, is typical of those whose "normal" eating - that they have got used to over years - is more than their body can burn.
So, they eat back all the FD deficit on NFDs

What can also happen, is that people who have been dieting for years,
psychologically rebound from previous diets and add back too much of previously banned foods, or have much larger portions of ordinary food
all of which can result in consuming well above TDEE

Remember toothat TDEE drops with the decades, so those who continue to eat as they got away with in teenage years and early 20s, typically struggle with weight from 30s onwards.
Also, pre-meno and meno can really pile on weight too

Holiday gain will be partly indigested food, Maz, plus retained water from excess carbs.
So a couple of FDs - and good poops - should get rid of most of this.

Sounds a good plan for the next vacation
Stick to no snacking between meals, including lattes, ices, booze etc. Only have these treats with a meal

OP posts: