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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 76: Your body needn‘t be a temple, but join us to stop it being a junky drive-thru.

989 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2018 23:10

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
PopGoesTheWeaz · 09/05/2018 09:43

Posting here for accountability!

ha - me too. Just came on to say that today is day two of my first ever b2b. After a 4 year hiatus (and gaining back all the weight lost) I've been fasting again for the last month and it's steadily coming off once more. Last time I fell off the wagon because of holidays and commitments so I'm determined to work around those this time - hence I'm not letting bank holidays throw me off my game.

Also went for a run yesterday which was first time exercising on a FD (usually I go morning after, before breaking fast). I managed to make it to dinner without feeling any significant hunger so that's another feather in my cap.

Feeling quite energised at the idea of the B2B at the moment but we'll see what happens this afternoon :)

noideawhattocallmyself · 09/05/2018 09:46

Had an OK FD yesterday - managed to avoid most cakes in the office (had a small teacake thingy with lunch) and also managed to avoid the family McD's! I'm counting those as small victories!
Out for a work meal tonight so could be a tough one.
Hope everyone has a great day.

littleladylawyer · 09/05/2018 10:15

Thanks BigChoc, I will always be someone who enjoys a glass of wine but I've learnt it doesn't need to be every day!!

quacking I'm going to follow your example and do 6 weeks totally without. I do like 85% choc, find 90% a bit too bitter, so will try introducing a couple of squares of that and see if it helps. Hope the fridge/freezer surprise dinner turns out ok!

Good luck smiled, blue, fortythree and other weds fasters. Well done for yesterday's fast and exercise pop, I enjoy b2bs as they really shrink my appetite back down after weekend indulgence

BigChocFrenzy · 09/05/2018 11:12

Well done on your SV, pop
With holidays, my advice is always - before you go - to write down the date of your next FD afterwards … and keep to it

OP posts:
UnnecessaryFennel · 09/05/2018 12:38

FD again here today. Feeling quite hungry but may treat myself to a cup of miso Grin. Keeping busy with work definitely helps, can't believe it's half 12 already!

PopGoesTheWeaz · 09/05/2018 12:48

Good idea about scheduling the FD in advance of the holiday bigchoc. I normally review the calendar and weather report at the weekend and mentally schedule my FDs and minimum runs but I think when getting back from holidays before life was just too hectic. Away at the coming half terms. I can keep running while there but food will be too good to pass up on (plus don't really like the kids to know about it) so will schedule the days upon my return. And if this B2B works out, that will make that task that much easier.

Motheroffourdragons · 09/05/2018 12:55

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

WreckTangled · 09/05/2018 12:56

Oh god I forgot about half term soon, not sure I'll cope! I work term time only so will be at home with the dc.

Have had lunch and am resisting the digestive biscuits.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 09/05/2018 13:44

well done wreck resisting the biscuits Grin
mother and fennel you can do it, glug another glass of water or a fruit tea.

I'm in a bit of a dilemma, saw that there is a power walk group starting up tonight and i really want to go as I do hardly any exercise but really enjoy walking and this will be good for my arthritic knee, but I'll be turning up on my own and I hate feeling like a billy no mates Sad come on MN, talk some sense into me and convince me there will be others there on their own?

WreckTangled · 09/05/2018 13:56

Forty I would be the same! You won't be the only one on your own though and you'll make new friends!

On a B2B why are you allowed more calories than a normal FD? Surely this will slow loss?

PopGoesTheWeaz · 09/05/2018 16:38

Forty I'm sure it will be a lovely friendly group. Not like those scary BMF peeps with all their yelling and name calling.

Wreck I don't really understand the extra calories either so I'm trying to stick to 500. I've read things like 500 is too hard to stick to so that's why the increased is allowed, but that does't seem right to me. Also read that non-weight benefits are affected but not weight loss but surely it would be the opposite?

Today's D2 of B2B has been easier than expected but I've had to check back here a few times so obviously it's on my mind (and stomach!) some. I've got a meal waiting for me at home, and the kids are having dinner with friends tonight so temptations are down.

On the other hand, DH is at work drinks tonight and usually brings home some awful (but tempting none the less) kebab/fried chicken type thing. Last night he ate a pie in front of me Angry

CheshireSplat · 09/05/2018 17:03

Do it forty . You're fabulous company on this thread so I'm sure you'll be the same in real life. People will enjoy meeting you and you'll enjoy meeting them and walking.

Wreck it's because you're going into the second day in an already fasted state. It does work!

WreckTangled · 09/05/2018 17:32

Hmm ok, thanks!

B2B FD no 2 finished on 578

UnnecessaryFennel · 09/05/2018 17:43

Dp has had some good news at work and has just texted to ask if I want to go out to dinner this evening. It's a fast day. Shall I go and write the FD off, or go, be sensible and do a mini-FD on, eg, Friday?

Or tell him, no I'm fasting Grin

CheshireSplat · 09/05/2018 17:47

BCF will be along later Wreck to explain more I'm sure, but the original 5:2 was b2b - Dr Varady. (I think!) There are interesting interviews with her - links in the OP.

Motheroffourdragons · 09/05/2018 17:55

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

WreckTangled · 09/05/2018 17:56

Thanks Cheshire will take a look

Unnecessary go and enjoy dinner and mini fast tomorrow too Smile

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 09/05/2018 17:57

How are you doing FDers???
The end is in sight!

Am on 303cals right now so have room for a healthy prawn based dinner.

Found a cheeky Ice lolly that was only 53cals which I hoovered up. I know it's not great to have sugar but had just done an hour's walk in the sun so feeling shattered! Water & herbal teas now till dinner time 

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 09/05/2018 17:58

Go for dinner fennel!!

WreckTangled · 09/05/2018 18:14

How many calories in a lick of ice cream off of the ice cream scoop BlushGrin

littleladylawyer · 09/05/2018 18:56

forty I think you should go for it! Let us know if you do.

fennel go and enjoy your dinner out, you can chuck in a mini later in the week.

Well done wreck, smiled and pop. I've got my dinner in the oven and kitchen should close at about 450.

I had my depo injection today which usually makes me bloated and prone to extreme pms type rages, but have felt good today, not sure if it's to do with it being a fd.

I just did a session of Caroline Pearce total cardio burn, it's only 20 mins plus about 10 for warm up and cool down but it's an absolute killer! I prefer it to Jillian though as I find her less grating. Determined to tone up this year!

BigChocFrenzy · 09/05/2018 18:58

The only scientific human trials on b2b used 650 cals
and I always recommend sticking to what has been actually proven to work.

b2b is the 5:2 version developed by Dr Michelle Harvie - before Mosely - specifically for overweight women and was funded by vatious cancer charities.
Her human trials showed considerable improvement over ordinary every day calorie reduction diets, but has never been compared in human trials to Mosely's 5.2

btw, Dr Varady developed ADF (alternate day fasting) but has never worked on 5:2 variants
Mosely used some of her work too !

The extra allowance on b2b is mainly because you start FD2 already in a fasted state.
Consecutive FDs would theoretically bring quicker loss - providing you don't eat more on the 5 consecutive NFDs - but is more difficult for most folk.

The slightly higher calorie allowance seems to balance all this out, because on these threads b2b and classic 5:2 deliver about the same results.

What is far more important than b2b or classic is sustainability:

  • Consistently nailing the FDs
  • Consistently averaging arounf TDEE over the 5 NFDs
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 09/05/2018 19:02

43 Go for it !
Lots of others are probably on their own too and it's the kind of activity with cameraderie, where you soon make casual friendships.

MrD Did you know anyone before you started on your moon walks ?

OP posts:
bluerunningshoes · 09/05/2018 19:22

kitchen closed at around 500.
I feel like I could eat a horse right now. so off brush teeth.

quackingduck222 · 09/05/2018 19:40

Little Lady - good on you. I find it helps reset my system going cold turkey.

Well done pop. You sound like your in a great headspace at the moment. Good luck for your B2B.

43 - I hope you found the courage to go. I completely understand where your coming from tho as I struggle in a lot of situations like that.

Well done all the fasters and B2Bers today.

I resisted takeaway, DH wanted to get me one on the way home. Sounded more tempting than the monstrosity combination I had for tea but said no. I’ve drank loads today in preparation for my run but I just could not get into it today so binned it and tomorrow is a fresh day.