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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 76: Your body needn‘t be a temple, but join us to stop it being a junky drive-thru.

989 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2018 23:10

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
bluerunningshoes · 07/05/2018 19:37

kitchen closed.
finished at 550
that was hard today!

BlueBelle123 · 07/05/2018 19:50

I'm back after spectatularly falling off the wagon about 6 weeks ago, not quite back where I started but not far off........this always happens I lose about a stone and then bang it goes straight back on!!!!!

Anyway, I go on holiday in 9 weeks so I have a goal and tomorrow will be my first FD, plus I will be doing 16-8 on non FD's as I find this really works for me, plus trying to drink loads of water.

Good luck everyone!!

BigChocFrenzy · 07/05/2018 21:46

underpants Repairing gut flora ? Yes, chnging what you eat & drink can do this
Mosely has a book mostly dealing with this: Clever Guts Diett*

Eat Mediteranean
Cut out:

  • Sugary junk - cake, biscuits, sweets etc - all highly processed carbs especially added sugar & white flour, crisps, also deep-fried foods.
  • Fizzy drinks, diet drinks with sweeteners, fancy sweet lattes
  • Beer, cocktails, most alcohol except red wine

What to Eat & drink:

  • Lots of oily fish e.g. salmon, tuna, trout, sardines, mackerel and herring
  • keep meat & poultry (free range) to moderate amounts (avoid US mass products)
  • Plenty of olive oil
  • Masses of different coloured veg & up to 2 portions fruit daily
  • eggs (free range)
  • nuts - unflavoured
  • beans, lentils, peas
  • natural (unflavoured) yoghurt
  • 70-92% cocoa chocolate - a couple of squares most days
  • wholegrains - moderate portions, or optionally low carb
  • (optional) ONE glass red wine on some, or all, of your NFDs
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 07/05/2018 21:58

Blue Nearly everyone falls off the wagon some time.
The trick is not to say sod it and give up for the whole day, or even for several weeks,
but to accept you had a bad few hours or couple of days - and that it can be quickly fixed at that stage

So move away from the cake or whatever and move on.
Make plans and start fresh the next day

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 07/05/2018 22:00

Anyway, you've stopped the rot, taken the first step and you are on your way Smile

OP posts:
WreckTangled · 08/05/2018 07:30

Day 1 of B2B. Lunch is humous, celery sticks, cucumber sticks, a small salad, high protein yoghurt with blueberries and chia seeds.

Dinner is stir fry with fish cakes. Yum!

Plenty of water too.

Pinkvici22 · 08/05/2018 07:40

Day 1 b2b for me too Wreck

Protein smoothie for late breakfast and omelette for dinner...emergency celery and Fibre One bar in my bag.

bluerunningshoes · 08/05/2018 08:02

good luck anyone who fasts today!

I'm feeling again a bit weak after my fast day maybe I really should go to bed earlier on those days.

frieda909 · 08/05/2018 09:22

Hi everyone! This is my very first day of fasting, wish me luck!

I never thought I’d try something like 5:2 but I saw an old friend at the weekend and she was looking fab. She is definitely not the kind of person who normally does diets etc., so I thought if it worked for her then it would be worth me giving it a go.

I have about a stone to lose.

I generally find that I get SUPER hungry in the mornings and I’m not so bad in the evenings, so going to try eating more in the morning and very little in the evening, but will experiment and see what works best!

quackingduck222 · 08/05/2018 09:24

Bug - that’s fantastic to hear your chilled out about target. Even going into maintenance I do honestly think you will hit target as your weight will still fluctuate up and down. But being chilled and not panicking is a must.
I do understand where your coming from about not noticing your progress as much as others. I think as it’s a gradual change we our selfs don’t notice it as much as others.

43 - fantastic NSVs there with meals out and clothes fitting!

No underpants- That’s so sad to hear. I hope things pick up for you soon.

Purple- That sounds a great plan. Are
you still doing the dry body brushing? If you are have you noticed any improvement?

Tangled - I wouldn’t worry with the ice cream. It’s nice to have something nice that you enjoy. Good luck with your b2b.

Running shoes well done on your FD.

BlueBelle - So good to see you back. I was concerned we hadn’t seen you in a little while. What happened to you has happened to me on multiple occasions and it’s hard to get back on track. Good for you for coming back!

Pink - good luck for your B2B

I’m having a FD today, I did over indulge this weekend. Need to get back on track this week and drink lots and eat well.

Good luck everyone who’s fasting

BigChocFrenzy · 08/05/2018 09:36

Wecome, fried Smile
and good luck on your 1st FD

If you prefer to have breakfast and either lunch or dinner, that's fine, but avoid grazing or snacking - they make you hungrier, on NFDs too

Longterm, if you are starving in the morning, look at what you eat & drink from about 4pm the day before -
it usually helps to keep alcohol within NHS limits and to lower the GI of your supper:
plenty of protein & veg, sensible not huge amounts of starchy carbs, minimise sweet stuff

In particular, cut out late night snacking and any sweet junk.
Also, avoid breakfast cereal & fruit juice at supper

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 08/05/2018 09:37

Good luck to all the Tuesday fasters
Lovely sunny week here (near Rhine) 24-28 C Smile

OP posts:
Homemadehopeful · 08/05/2018 10:29

Morning all and welcome to Frieda, good luck with your first FD!

Wreck & Pink I am considering a B2B today and tomorrow after over indulging a little over the weekend but Friday is dayv1 of my week and I have always done a FD then and am thinking FD Tues / Weds & Fri may be a bit too much. I'm torn between just seeing how it goes and setting myself a definite target as I know the first option allows me a get out that I probably shouldn't give myself!

BlueBelle123 · 08/05/2018 10:55

Quacking so pleased to see that you are still here offering fab support and advice.

First FD in a while, going well so far haven't eaten anything yet hoping to hold out to tea, which will be chicken and vegetable stir fry!

Good luck all fellow Tuesday Fasters!

frieda909 · 08/05/2018 12:56

1pm and I’m hanging in there so far. Just had a mug of vegetable soup for lunch and savoured it like it was my last ever meal! Got about 170 calories left for the day which isn’t a whole lot but I’m hoping I can make it through with lots of herbal tea and water!

snailhunter · 08/05/2018 13:43

Just checking in for a very late FD! First of the week as had yesterday off. I had a lovely bank holiday weekend, and a very active one - two-hour bike ride yesterday, swimming today (my first fasted swim which went very well). Nothing to eat so far - saving myself for spicy tortilla at dinner which clocks in at 320 cals, leaving me 180 for Greek you and fruit. Good luck, Frieda, you're doing great. I find keeping busy and distracted really helps on an FD.

snailhunter · 08/05/2018 13:45

Oh and I'd say a definite yes to experimenting Frieda and finding out what works for you - I started off doing lunch and dinner on FDs but then found that just having a bigger dinner suited me much better. I recommend Pukka teas - I love the ginger and matcha one. I also have at least a day between my FDs - I don't do back to back, unlike many brave souls on here! So find your FD happy place. :)

noideawhattocallmyself · 08/05/2018 13:51

FD here today - hope everyone's goes well. Had a cup of tea, loads of water and a cup of miso soup base today. Planning a spinach and light cream cheese omelette (omelette is my go to meal on a FD :) ) for tea with some lovely fruit and greek yoghurt for pud then a cosy night of watching the Eurovision semi-finals Grin Blush
Should come in at around 470-500 if I can keep it going.
I think I'll do some measurements tonight as well so if I don't get a loss on the scales I don't get disheartened!
Good luck fellow FD-ers!

CheshireSplat · 08/05/2018 14:26

Hello all.

Had a wonderful weekend camping with friends in the Welsh countryside. Lots to eat and drink - barbecue, fish and chips, melted marshmallows sandwiched between biscuits with chocolate buttons.... So it was terrible foodwise, so I skipped breakfast both days and went into an unplanned FD yesterday. The weather helped!!! Doing another today, B2B, and have only had a Bovril and lots of water and herbal tea so far.

Would normally weigh on a Monday, but we were still away, so I weighed this morning instead. Pretty much stayed the same so thank goodness for yesterday's FD as I crept in under 11 stone at 10 stone 13.5!!!! I'm still never seeing that 11 stone again!!

I now need to crack on - next target 10 stone 10. At 2/3 lb a week, that should be 5-6 weeks.

NoWayNoHow · 08/05/2018 16:21

Hello all

I'm very Blush that I've not been on the thread or caught up for a whole week... Sorry! Blush

I've stayed on the wagon, though, and am doing my first FD of the week today after the BH weekend when I stayed just about within, or slightly over, TDEE for each day.

Weirdly, today for the first time since I started this WOE, I've gone through the whole day without anything of any calorific value, which I'm quite amazed at! I normally split my calories into lunch and dinner, so who knows what I'll spend a whole 500cals on tonight! The world is my oyster!

A big, huge congrats for all SVs and NSVs I've missed this week Flowers - I'm going to be better at catching up!!

ApricotExpat · 08/05/2018 16:28

Hi all,

Please can I re-join you?

I'm back to 16:8 / 18:6 and feeling good again. A bit PMT-ish today so have eaten more in my 8 hours than I should. Had vegetable soup, home -made hummus, a frozen banana - and then it went wrong and I made some dates with almond butter.

Love this thread and all it's positivity!

MazDazzle · 08/05/2018 16:59

Welcome Freida! How is your first FD going?

Good to see you back Apricot and Bluebelle.

Well done for getting back into fasting so soon Cheshire! After a heavy weekend it’s easy to let things slip and. Score younknow it, it’s a heavy fortnight.

Fasting today after 10 days off. Had a fab holiday and I’m really proud of my holiday habits! Ate twice a day, no snacking and rarely had any sugary treats at all. I enjoyed everything I ate and drank all the more for it. Things have slipped a bit these last few days with jet lag, empty cupboards, grazing and takeaways, it feels good to get back to fasting.

Haven’t had anything to eat so far. Haven’t planned dinner, but sent DH to do a food shop, so there’ll be plenty to choose from. I’ve made macaroni cheese for everyone else, which I’m not a huge fan of anyway. A tactical manoeuvre on my part!

Good luck to everyone fasting today.

WreckTangled · 08/05/2018 17:42

FD kitchen closed at 594 although 110 of those were just stir fry veg. I don't usually count salad etc but that seemed too much to ignore!

Homemadehopeful · 08/05/2018 18:41

So far I have only had a 41 cal of salted popcorn! DH has just gone to the supermarket as the fridge is bare after our long weekend away. Dinner is going to be a 2 egg omelette with some veg and a side salad. After that I am planning on going for a swim.

I find it amazing really that at the beginning of a FD I always think it's going to be really tough and then actually find not eating during the day quite easy. I definitely find it easier on days I am not in the office!

CheshireSplat · 08/05/2018 19:10

FD finished. Very strange one, had only bovril and one cup of tea until 6.30pm and didn't even feel hungry. Just had had 3 egg omelette with veg and 4 anchovy filled, and a piece of toast with butter and a cup of tea. Kitchen closed at 478 calories. Cannot believe how easy these 2 FDs have been; combination of so much food at the weekend plus hot weather yesterday.

However, for those who have known me too long it's not the FDS I struggle with but the NFDs so will MFP this week.