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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 76: Your body needn‘t be a temple, but join us to stop it being a junky drive-thru.

989 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2018 23:10

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
BigChocFrenzy · 06/05/2018 14:15

You sound well on your way to breaking the snack habit, wreck
That will be a major NSV that will help lifetime maintenance and also reduce the chance of T2 later in life

OP posts:
WreckTangled · 06/05/2018 14:19

How many calories in home brewed champagne? I've got raspberries in it so it's healthy Wink

BigChocFrenzy · 06/05/2018 15:27

home brewed strawb champagne? < impressed >

When I was a little'un, my dad & I used to pick sloes to make sloe gin, which sat burbling away in the loft, nex o his beer.
Much better than mass-produced stuff
I used to get a thimble-sized glass of gin, or sherry, every Sunday lunch, from the age of 4 ! (this was 1960+)
I hated the taste of beer, still do and have always been near-teetotal, so that was a good inoculation.

OP posts:
WreckTangled · 06/05/2018 15:34

Dh got it from someone he was working for. We're now having a bbq but I only had a 200calorie lunch to ensure I could enjoy it Smile

Motheroffourdragons · 06/05/2018 18:03

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/05/2018 19:55

Good plan, mother

OP posts:
FriendlyGhost · 06/05/2018 20:52

Another FD done. I found it so much easier today and I managed until 7pm with virtually no hunger pangs. I think it was probably the heat.
Home brewed champagne sounds amazing. I’m going to treat myself to a cider at lunchtime tomorrow.

Motheroffourdragons · 06/05/2018 22:12

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

WreckTangled · 07/05/2018 07:06

I have no idea as it was a gift Grin I think I went over TDEE by about 100 calories yesterday good job I had a mini on Friday. NFD today. Usually a FD but I know I won't manage it being off of work so B2B tomorrow and weds instead.

bluerunningshoes · 07/05/2018 07:21

fd today (am at work)
sitting in the garden with my large cup of tea and glass of kefir before I head off.

Hockneypool · 07/05/2018 08:30

Fd and work for me too. We have a team get together, planned back in January and no one checked the diary. We work flexibly and don’t get bank holidays off - we get the days off to use when we want instead. Mostly it works well but today I wish I could stay at home in the garden. Looks like it’s going to be a nice day too. But I think the fast days work better for me when I’m out and about and not at home at my desk.

Pinkvici22 · 07/05/2018 09:42

Good luck on the FDs. I’m off work today and which means I’ll need to do B2B FDs Tuesday and Wednesday....any tips?

quackingduck222 · 07/05/2018 09:43

Tangled- home made champagne sounds wonderful I hope you enjoyed it.

FriendlyGhost - congrats on your FD. Especially doing so whilst having your family outing.

Mother of four - good luck for the week ahead. Planning your week ahead is great.

Blue Running - good luck on your FD.

Hockney - Id say see how the day goes, if you really struggle then schedule FDs on your day off if it’s easier.

Hope everyone has a good weekend.

HLBug · 07/05/2018 09:48

Ok so I've had a very enjoyable weekend - easily 3000 + calories both days Shock Sensible NFD today then FD tomorrow, potentially B2B with Wednesday.

I'm a stones through away from maintenance and I've decided just to chill the flip out now. Chatting to my very slim friend on Saturday and it turns out I now weigh less than her - that was a shock and I really think I'm having issues seeing the progress I've made. Officially embracing chill out mode - if I keep slowly loosing and get the extra 2lb off to get to target then great but...if not and I maintain here then that's fine too Smile

HLBug · 07/05/2018 09:49
  • stones throw! FFS!
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 07/05/2018 09:53

Morning everyone, hope you are all having a fab weekend. Had 2 meals out with booze and managed really well, got into my smaller size jeans and a size 12 jacket I haven't worn for years :-)
Nfd here today, normally would be an fd but as I'm off work with dh and ds going to do weds and Fri thus week. Good luck Monday fasters

Pink I'm sure you will be fine with your b2b, I did my first ever one last week and the extra 150cals really do make a difference. I skipped breakfast (which I always do) and divide 650 up between lunch and dinner and it wasn't that bad. Keep busy, keep posting here and lots of water Grin good luck!!

NoUnderpantsinSpace · 07/05/2018 15:05

Just poking my head in to say I'm failing miserably at the moment. I'm hoping to pull off a mini today... and after my birthday I really need to cut down the sugar!

I'm ill with a really sore throat Sad I'm sure that being healthier and fitter would help me to be ill less often.

Anyway... any sugar avoiding tips?

purpleviolet1 · 07/05/2018 15:52

Hl bug that's fantastic

At last weigh in I was 8st 10lbs and In the grand scheme of things I'm not too fussed about getting down to my absolute lowest - 8 stone in any rush. I want to start to concentrate on building strength and adding some exercise in.

Saying that I am on day 1 of a potential b2b Grin

WreckTangled · 07/05/2018 17:31

I had a really unhealthy ice cream earlier so have just had salad (no dressing) and a small amount of homemade potato salad for dinner to keep within TDEE. Mfp is saying I'm at 1100 calories but I'm worried I've underestimated the ice cream so not eating anymore. Looking forward to my B2B tomorrow.

bluerunningshoes · 07/05/2018 17:33

fd going well so far, though neighbours have started the bbq...
one hour until dinner.

BigChocFrenzy · 07/05/2018 17:38

Sorry to hear about your throat, Underpants I hope it clears up soon.

You are right - added sugar (so, not in fruit) tends to change the gut flora and reduce the effectiveness of the immune system
It also increases waistlines more than other types of calories (along with alcohol) and increases risk of T2

To cut right down on sugar:

  • You know this one ! - NO snacking between meals / no grazing

  • Try cutting down to one moderate portion every other day, then 2:5 it, i.e. only on 2 NFDs per week, still the one portion
    Or some folk can't do moderation and just have to cut out completely - you know what is doable for you

  • Aim to have at least a short daily walk, or some other exercise.
    This can distract your brain and reduce cravings, especially if you get into the habit of a walk outside to boost mood, instead of sugary junk

  • If you have sweet crap as "reward" or mood booster, then develop non-food treats
    e.g. put on new nail varnish, spa mask, fav music, new film, Kindle book, new gym class …

  • Boost beans, lentils, peas because they help stablise blood sugar

  • Cut out fruit juice, dried fruit, breakfast cereal - too high concentrated sugar

  • Drink more water, especially to replace fizzy drinks like coke. Even diet drinks change gut flora and may spike insulin levels.

  • No more than 2 portions fruit per day - Mosely suggests this for everyone, to reduce risk of T2

  • Look at your starchy carbs, i.e. bread, potato, pasta, rice

If your portions are too large, this can increase sugar cravings
At each meal, starchy carbs should be no more than 100g cooked weight, or 2 medium slices bread.
If you double carb, then halve the quantities of each

Move to less processed carbs, to stabilise blood sugar:
. swap from sugary breakfast cereal to porridge (not the flavoured instant kind)
. swap from white to wholegrain / rye / sourdough bread
. swap from white to brown / red rice
. swap from mash or fried potato to boiled or baked
. swap from white pasta to quinoa

Letting starches cool - e.g. having potato salad - or cooling and then reheating - e.g. pasta, rice - reduces their impact

However, if you are low carbing daily, this can cause sugar cravings, so you may need to add small portions of minimally processed carbs

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 07/05/2018 17:43

wreck I recommend you add some protein, to keep you feeling full, especially if you have a b2b next.
That could be e.g. boiled or scrambled eggs / slices of chicken breast or beef / maybe with green salad & lemon

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 07/05/2018 17:45

If you are trying to cut the calories in a meal,
it is best to cut down the starchy carbs, the sauce / dressing / gravy and even the fruit, but keep the protein & veg -
this also lowers the GI of the meal.

OP posts:
WreckTangled · 07/05/2018 17:47

We haven't got much in and I hate egg! I've had 47g of protein today so hopefully be ok.

NoUnderpantsinSpace · 07/05/2018 19:35

Thanks for that BCF! I have low carved before and found it worked well for me but I struggle to keep it up long term.
But, I am going to cut down. That's for certain. And I might have managed a mini today... I'll plug it into MFP in a bit. But I was absolutely determined not to snack and I managed that.

That's still no.1 on my list!

I have a question...
If sugar affects/damages gut flora can that be reversed?
And if so, how does one achieve that?

Thank you! Thanks

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