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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 76: Your body needn‘t be a temple, but join us to stop it being a junky drive-thru.

989 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2018 23:10

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 05/05/2018 08:21

Well done homemade that sounds brutal.
Excellent sv wreck

My b2b undid any damage from my Dublin trip with an additional 1lb off which takes me into the 12s Grin Grin Grin I've not seen that number for a while. ...

Beautiful day here, happy Saturday everyone Smile

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 05/05/2018 08:25

Well done noidea 2lb is great sv. We had a Chinese takeaway last weekend, I skipped breakfast and had a very light lunch and then shared a main with ds and shared rice and a handful of chips, it was actually really filling so you might surprise yourself that sharing is enough for you? Enjoy the treat though...

OohMrDarcy · 05/05/2018 08:53

Some excellent SVs all around this morning... well done all!

FriendlyGhost · 05/05/2018 09:08

Good luck to everyone this weekend. I have a feeling the nice weather and them temptation of beer and ice cream in the garden is going to be too much to resist. Dh is very good at sabotaging my healthy eating. I’m hoping I can go for a run each day though. I might try to do a FD on Monday as usual but I don’t hold out much hope that it will be successful.
Weird question but has anyone found that they get more spots doing this? I’ve been doing it for almost 2 weeks now and I’ve started to get a few spots. I haven’t had any for years. It could of course be AF returning after an absence of over 2 years but I wondered if it was anything to do with diet.

Pinkvici22 · 05/05/2018 09:27

First weigh in....I’ve lost 6lbs!!!! I am so happy. Really determined to keep going now!

BigChocFrenzy · 05/05/2018 09:39

Congrats on your SV, pink
That's a good, motivating start

Well done on nailing your b2b yesterday, 43
and on your mini, wreck

You did really well to resist the G&T, 43
Can you create a new habit / association for sunny days - say a long pretty glass of sparkling water with ice & a couple of slices, a long straw

friendly Remember no snacking ever
If you really want beer & an ice, then have beer with your lunch and move to the garden with ice as your pud

People usually find that their skin improves with 5:2
Fasting often helps spots etc that are caused by PCOS - because it improves the insulin metabolism issues causing PCOS - or also inflammation - which fasting can reduce.

I suppose it could be just an interim effect while a metabolic issue is being tackled

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 05/05/2018 09:51

What a fantastic start pink

Thanks bcf I am trying to instill new habits, yesterday proved to me that just because it's a Friday, the world won't end if I don't have a drink. Also knowing I'm out today helped with the mantra I can have it tomorrow Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 05/05/2018 09:52

Welcome, yumyum Smile

The BSD is a VLCD, i.e. only a short term diet
which was originally created for those with T2 / preT2
but sometimes also used by those with a lot to lose, who want an early boost.

For most people just wanting to lose weight, 5:2 is more appropriate,
because 5:2 is a sustainable longterm WOE
and can be used for lifetime maintenance.

In the weight loss phase, the 5 NFDs need to be “maintenance“ days,
i.e. eating within your TDEE so as not to eat back the FD deficit

Mosely’s TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)

Many people have got used to eating above TDEE for years, so they need to use the NFDs to retrain longterm habits

Is this why you say 5:2 doesn‘t work for you ?

"If you return to your old WOE, then you'll return to your old weight & waist"

That's the fact behind "diets don't work" - you must change your WOE permanently
Those who never get NFDs under control - i.e. "normal" eating - are likely to regain

Once at goal, you need a definite maintenance plan, preferably with some kond of regular fasting,
e.g. 5:2 (but eating back the deficit on NFDs) or 6:1 or daily 16:8

plus

use the weight loss phase - & the NFDs - to develop good longterm habits:

  • #1 = No snacking or grazing EVER Nothing between meals, including lattes, booze or even fruit If you allow snacks on weekends & holidays, you are just perpetuating the habit
  • Be sensible about the amount of "treats", especially sweet ones ⁃ try to have no more than one medium portion per day and not every NFD and only have as part of a meal
  • Stay within NHS alcohol limits
  • Drink lots of water

To help you start this, mfp for a week, to highlight calorie bombs or whether your problem is portion size.

You choose whether you want to keep mfp for a while as a training tool / reality check.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 05/05/2018 09:58

Well done on your SV and inches NSV, noidea
That's good progress, especially the inches, which is bodyfat lost in the best place for health & shape

Relax, be patient and settle in for the long haul - that weight took years to put on and consolidate, so it won't disappear in a few weeks

Like MrD, break down your goal into lots of minigoals - her post on this is a great example Smile
Over the weeks & months, the loss really accumulates, especially if you train yourself into the permanent 5:2 good habits I posted above

OP posts:
quackingduck222 · 05/05/2018 16:16

43 - well done on your B2B & for your SV Fantastic stuff.

Tangled - well done on your mini. And congrats on your SV & loosing inches.

Homemade- well done that sounds so tough.

No idea- also well done to you for your 2lbs loss. No definitely don’t be disheartened it’s going in the right direction and like you said long term it’s a fabulous WOL.

FriendlyGhost - my DH sounds similar to yours. He’s learnt now now to force feed me as I do simply refuse. I’ve learnt to say no and unless I want something I won’t be pursuaded.
RE the spots, I tend to get them when I’ve eaten a load of crap and I did get them a few weeks in to starting 5:2 (that’s usual for me for starting any diet) but rarely get them now. It’s cleared my skin up nicely I was rather spot prone before.

Pink - 6lbs how cow that’s bloody loads. Congrats

BCF - how is your weekend going?
Ooh I wonder if I can ask have you got a toning exercise that will hit right across the belly button? I have a puffy area that I can’t seem to hit although it may be a bit of loose skin creasing and pulling it down.

DH said he had a suprise for me. Ive been wondering what it is for hours... he’s entered me in a 10k next Sunday. Yeah not really what I was expecting but hey ho. Grin

Hope everyone is having a good weekend

BigChocFrenzy · 05/05/2018 17:17

duck Best thing to tighten the navel area, or the rectus abdominus muscle behind it, is the forearm plank.

I suggest (build up to it) 3 times per week you do 2 planks of 30 sec, with a rest between.
Keep back in a straight line from shoulders to heels , no bum in the air - it's rude too

5:2 Thread No. 76:  Your body needn‘t be a temple, but join us to stop it being a junky drive-thru.
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 05/05/2018 17:20

That‘s the helpful sort of surprise Smile

OP posts:
quackingduck222 · 05/05/2018 17:38

Great thanks BCF. Just started plank again and can do it for about 30 seconds so that suits me well.

WreckTangled · 05/05/2018 18:37

NFD finished at 1169 calories. But if guess work as all home made stuff. I asked dh to get me a couple of cans of g&t and specified slimline but he forgot and got regular AngrySad so I won't be having any.

Pink that's amazing! Well done!

I think I've caught the sun a bit. Must drink extra water.

Pinkvici22 · 05/05/2018 22:05

NFD and had a couple of celebratory glasses of prosecco (thank you all for the words of encouragement!). Been pretty good with food and went for a long walk so hoping the prosecco won’t have done too much damage. Hope everyone’s enjoying the sun!

yumyumpoppycat · 05/05/2018 23:28

Thanks everyone for kind welcome and advice Smile Yes I think it's a way of life I need to find over all rather than quick fix.

Big Choc - I did go back to my old habbits and am finding them hard to resist. I basically can't eat things like chocolate biscuits but I want to so much! Also snacking and eating late, and the weight goes on sooooo fast. I just feel stupid because I want the celebration and comfort eating junk foods that I know cause me to gain weight - I don't want to outright ban them forever but I either do that or be super strict and log on MFP forever?

With 5:2 I genuinely think the 500 days are a just a bit too low and make me ill over time especially when coupled with high days. I could be deluded and its a coincidence seeing as I did months of averaging at 900 cals. But the suggestions I have seen on here to start higher and work down sound like a good way to ease into it.

Right putting it out there 3 under 800 fasts on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday. Grazing is officially off, and any sweet 'treat' needs to be at the end of a meal. Fingers crossed!

yumyumpoppycat · 05/05/2018 23:37

That's disappointing about your g and t Wreck, I am always in a grump if I set my heart on something foodey and it doesn't work out - a headstart for tomorrow though?

Big choc - I find planks easier on my hands - does that suggest something lacking in core?

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 05/05/2018 23:53

quacking I agree that's not the kind of surprise I'd be hoping for!

Grrrr wreck but I'm sure you could have managed 1 g&t? If you want a job doing though......

yum I'm no expert and I'm surebcf and others can give you sound advice but 3 sub 800 call days should be good but it'll be the nfds that you will need to sort out... good luck

WreckTangled · 06/05/2018 08:22

We've been given a bottle of home made champagne so will be sharing that tonight Grin dh will have to drink the g&t.

Yumy I'm an awful snacker too but have been adding sweet treats onto the end of my meals and making sure I could cals. Snacking in the evening is just a habit and can be broken.

FriendlyGhost · 06/05/2018 09:05

quacking if my husband did that to me he would be doing it in my place. Good luck though.
I’m checking in because I’m going to attempt a fast day today. We’re going to the seaside and Dh has suggested fish and chips for lunch. I don’t eat them so I’m thinking I can probably grab something small to keep me going until dinner. We’ll see though. If we end up going to a pub then i’ll do it tomorrow instead.

BigChocFrenzy · 06/05/2018 10:38

YumYum Treats - Rule of thumb:

  • Weight loss phase - keep TOTAL of [junk / treat + alcohol] weekly within 10% of weekly 5:2 cals e.g. on TDEE 2000, 5NFDs + 2FDs = 11,000 cals weekly, so 1,100 for treats including booze, lattes, cake, bsiscuits etc
  • Lifetime Maintenance Phase - keep within 20%, e.g. 2,200

You know whether you have the discipline to plan & mfp [weekly treats + booze] - you need to do this is advance, not after consuming them.
BUT
some people who have been overweight / yoyoed for years may have insulin resistance,
in which case they won't lose with sweet treats & would regain on maintenance

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 06/05/2018 10:39

For those who find 500 cals too hard, you can certainly try 800 cals and see how you go
BUT
then it's even more important to get NFDs under control

If you don't lose properly on that, then I recommend 3 miniFDs (800-1000 cals) weekly
e.g. Mon+Wed+Fri or your Tue+Thur+Sat (even better as it reduces the weekend sabotage)
This usually gives about the same rate of loss as 5:2 with 500 cal FDs

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 06/05/2018 10:40

yumyum Most folk find hand planks easier than forearm plank, because more load is taken by the powerful shoulder muscles and less by the rectus abdominus muscles which you need to target for the navel area.

OP posts:
yumyumpoppycat · 06/05/2018 13:23

Ah ok thanks Bigchoc that's useful to know - I will persevere with forearm planks then.

Very true about NFDS being the important part and not eating sweets too often while in losing weight phase - I think I had sort of come to that conclusion in the past that I need to eat well and not just count calories to lose weight but conveniently forgotten it Confused Thanks all Flowers

BigChocFrenzy · 06/05/2018 14:13

Duck's surprise from her OH is really good, imo, because it fits her tastes
Different viewpoints Smile

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