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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 76: Your body needn‘t be a temple, but join us to stop it being a junky drive-thru.

989 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2018 23:10

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
BigChocFrenzy · 04/05/2018 09:38

Well done on your SVs, wreck, MrD
Excellent progress, both of you

Good luck to the Friday fasters Smile

duck longer water-only fasts are used by some specialist doctors to treat certain serious ailments like high BP, kidney disease.
However, they absolutely REQUIRE medical supervision and are for patients, not someone reasonably healthy who just wants to lose weight
Long fasts require monitoring and top-ups with minerals etc or they can be very dangerous for the body.

Also, patients accept risking a little muscle loss, because the priority is treating their serious medical problem.

Being very cautious, I keep reminding 5.2ers that they should not go longer than about 23 hours maximum before their FD meal
and many folk feel better with 2 FD meals.
Varady's human studies showed that FDs with 25% TDEE had better results for body composition (% fat and muscle) than zero-cal ones

OP posts:
snailhunter · 04/05/2018 09:41

Amazing loss mrdarcy, and good luck to Fri fasters! I run my own company, homemade, and work from my garden office, and we are very lucky in my town to have a lovely outdoor pool. I try to make the most of being my own boss. When work is crazy I barely leave the office but when it’s reasonable I give myself a day off, like today! I’m at 9 st 11 today, and according to my graph losing around 1/2 pound a week which is fine as I only have another 4lb to go to goal weight!

BigChocFrenzy · 04/05/2018 10:56

That's a good rate of loss when you are so near goal, snail
Working from home sounds ideal too

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 04/05/2018 11:00

Gammel Shred Level 1 is still free.
It's only 20 mins and is a good all-body workout that will soon boost fitness,
if you can manage about 3 times per week:
https://www.izlesene.com/video/jillian-michaels-30-day-shred-level-1/72599977_

OP posts:
quackingduck222 · 04/05/2018 12:43

Well done snail. Eeek just 4lbs away from target I’m so happy and excited for you.

Darcy - don’t put yourself down. You’ve done fantastic. I’d say look at how far you’ve come rather than how far you have to go. Just stick with it and you will do it.
How are you finding 5:2?

Went on a mission to Asda to find the cauli base pizzas but store doesn’t stock them. Not sure if it’s because our store is quite small or there new out. Bit gutted as I was looking forward to pizza night but have settled for pork & peppers for tea instead.

bluerunningshoes · 04/05/2018 12:54

how would a chickpea base fare?

OohMrDarcy · 04/05/2018 13:38

ah quacking, I'm not putting myself down - just try not to let myself get too smug haha! I love 5:2, I love it as a way of boosting health and lifestyle and weight loss. This time around I'm losing slower definitely, but that feels like it is because I'm making things more sustainable long term. Last time I lost 4 stone reasonably quickly (2 stone in first 2 months) but when I had special occasions / holidays I lost it and really struggled to get back into things. This time I've already gotten through times which broke me last time if that makes sense?

BigChocFrenzy · 04/05/2018 13:42

You are moving steadily, MrD and relearning your good habits
Remember to break down your final goal into lots of mini-goals and milestones:
every 5 lb, 5kg, stone …
with a major milestone as you drop into lower BMI bands

  • next big target is BMI sub-35
OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 04/05/2018 13:55

Oh definitely breaking down into lots of little goals! Next few include:
1 stone 7
1 stone 11(10% loss)
2 stone
2 stone 9 (15% loss)
3 stone 1 (Sub 35 BMI)

Sub 35 BMI is a little way away and will be just over 3 stone total loss - so I'm about half way to that at present, but will be a good feeling when I get there!

purpleviolet1 · 04/05/2018 14:17

On Wednesday after missing 2 weeks of FD's I was 9st 0.5lbs. I did a b2b for the first time ever and not only did I lose the weight I had put in (8st11.5), I've lost more taking me to 8st 10.8lbs Grin

On a separate note I've woke up feeling horrendous. My body is absolutely aching and sore throat. I can't seem to shake off whatever I have Sad will do healthy nfd's now until I feel well enough

OohMrDarcy · 04/05/2018 14:23

Well done - fantastic SV Purple! Boo to feeling poorly though - feel better soon!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 04/05/2018 14:28

wowee purple excellent result, well done, and very inspiring as I am on day 2 of my first ever B2B... hope you feel better soon though

BigChocFrenzy · 04/05/2018 14:29

Well done on your SV, purple

Yes to healthy TLC NFDs to support your immune system and to zap that lurgie:

  • Drink lots more water. Soup too
  • Early nights and maybe even siestas
  • Boost veg, also beans, peas, lentils
  • No alcohol (if you drink)
  • Cut out / cut right down on junky "treats" - cake, biscuits, sweets, crisp, fries, other deep-fried food, takeaways
OP posts:
purpleviolet1 · 04/05/2018 16:21

Thanks BCF

purpleviolet1 · 04/05/2018 16:21

And the others for the advice as well

yumyumpoppycat · 04/05/2018 16:40

Hello do you mind if I pop on. TBH 5:2 doesn't seem to work for me, have tried a few times since 2012 including last year when I got to an all time low then rebounded. BSD did work, but now isn't (or to be honest my willpower isn't working!) so am a bit stuck. I am interested in fasting and the benefits though so could I lurk for some of the motivation and sciencey stuff!

Good wishes to the weekend fasters Star

quackingduck222 · 04/05/2018 17:31

Darcy I hope you have some rewards for your milestones. I liked making a little tick list of goals and rewards next to it for extra motivation.
Also that’s fantastic that your overcoming hurdles from last time.

Purple hope you feel better soon. But that’s a fantastic SV. Well done.

Running shoes that pizza looks fabulous. Have you tried it?

43 How is your B2B going?

Poppycat, Hello. BSD is so very hard going. I found it mentally very tough. This is so much a easier way of life.

WreckTangled · 04/05/2018 18:14

Mini fast completed on 938. We're out for breakfast tomorrow for bil's birthday. Luckily it's not a place that does pancakes Grin

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 04/05/2018 19:36

Welcome yumyum not tried bsd so can't comment on that bur the thing I like about 5:2 is that you are in theory only on a 'diet' for 2 days a week, yes you have to eat mindfully on nfd but it feels so much more like a sustainable WOL. good luck with it all.

quacking thank you for asking after me Smile I've just eaten dinner and kitchen is closing on 652 call so I did it!!! Go me Grin the sunshine has tested my resolve, the urge to sit out with a g&t has been difficult but I'm hanging on and not spoiling it now.

Hope everyone else has managed a good fd today...

wreck enjoy your breakfast Smile

Homemadehopeful · 04/05/2018 19:37

So far so good here. Have had 476 cals plus a small decaf skinny latte but I'm not sure of the calories in that. Nearly at the airport, a fairly long night ahead I fear!

Well done on the B2B 43, well done purple fantastic results!
Snail it's great to hear your success too, slow and steady is what I keep trying to tell myself!

WreckTangled · 04/05/2018 19:51

Thanks forty I've looked on the menu and there's nothing that makes me think 'yum!' so might just have toast otherwise I'll feel like I'm wasting money and calories!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 04/05/2018 22:08

Well done homemade and forgot to say fab sv snail, just 4lbs away from goal is awesome Smile

Painted my nails and now off to bed for an early night, surprised to find I'm really not hungry either. Posh meal out tomorrow so going to try and go as long as possible without food and just have a chicken salad around 1/2pm so that I can really enjoy my meal later and some Wine

Hope everyone has a fab bank holiday weekend Grin

Homemadehopeful · 04/05/2018 23:30

Just landed and I am bloody starving!! Still have approx 1 1/2 hr car journey before I can actually go to bed!! I am never doing a FD whilst travelling again!!

WreckTangled · 05/05/2018 07:16

Home that sounds tough!!

131lb exactly this morning 2.6lb down in a week. 1inch off my hips and 0.5inch off my waist.

noideawhattocallmyself · 05/05/2018 08:20

2lb down today - still a (very) long way to go but I can actually see this being manageable for the long haul so I'm not getting disheartened yet!
Measured my waist (it's not a waist I'm just using that as a description of where it is :) ) this morning and I've lost 5cm!!
Bit of a challenge today - eldest is home and insisting on Chinese takeaway for tea (poor student so never eats it normally at college) so will have to think more carefully on an NFD!!
Good luck for the weekend everyone - and huge congrats to those with both SV and NSV .

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