5:2 Thread No. 76: Your body needn‘t be a temple, but join us to stop it being a junky drive-thru.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Well done MrDarcy, kitchen closed here too! Hooray for us: we are brilliant. Particularly pleased with myself because I started the day thinking: 'screw this fasting bollocks for a lark, what is the bloody point'. And am ending it all smug and full of vegetables.

Well done you email, big NSV right there!

Hello all great stuff reading all the victories and woes of this WOL. This week has been a funny one. I fasted last week three days (due to NFD guilt) - the scales ddnt really shift for all my extra fasting efforts......then had better NFDs this week and had two not so great FDs . But I have had a SV of sorts. Total loss after NFD (yesterday) had me at 3.5kg loss since I started 3.5 weeks ago. But I had STAYED THE SAME ON PREVIOUS FD!

Hoping for a bit more luck after today’s FD (even though it’s between an FD and a miniFD). In fact how do you class those days when you have come in around 700-800? Do I try for a third FD (Sunday) again or just stick with normal 5:2. Decisions decisions. I think my main issue is how to tackle more than 3 NFDs in a row.

For the record 17kg to go. I feel I need to write that down.

Thanks for the tip BigChoc but I really can’t stomach marmite...any alternatives?

NFD here. Overnight oats for breakfast, beef salad for lunch and grilled pesto salmon and green veg for tea. I did have a skinny latte from Starbucks but other than that think I’ve been pretty good.

Well done Thurs fasters and well done gobble on your sv.

Day 1 of b2b today and kitchen closed at 642cals... just have to get through a Friday fd now, never attempted one before wish me luck!

Wishing you luck. Fridays are tough but you’ll crack it

Pink I feel similar after a FD. Marmite does really help. I’ve been having it diluted in a mug of hot water. Or maybe Boullion? That would give you salts but is 10 calories. I cracked last night and had a teaspoon of options hot chocolate in hot water for a sweet fix. A normal serving of 3 teaspoons is 40 calories so I decided it wouldn’t do too much damage. It really helped.
A NFD here. I had a small bit of cake at a friend’s house. It would have been rude to refuse because she had made it and gave it to me but I had a salad for dinner to compensate and I was within today’s allowance. Just. I think a lot of my problem is snacking. I’m very bad at not having time for a proper breakfast or lunch and just grabbing things straight from the fridge as I go past or having biscuits at playgroup. I’m also guilty of snacking on the children’s leftovers. This is certainly making me consider everything I throw into my mouth now. I’m a healthy bmi but I haven’t been able to fit into any of my nice Pre children clothes for 4 years now so I really need to change the way I eat.

Yep snacking for me = binge.

BCF have you read Jason Fungs book? I found it’s good but quite a hard read. Interesting tho he’s very much into scientific research. I like MM writing style it’s very straight forward.

Tangled - it’s all fine, it’s not a constant diet so if you want the biscuits have them. Plus you’ve included them into TDEE so your being mindful.

Cheshire- I read some of that thread had to stop as it was making me hungry.

Darcy - well done on your FD. And the lessons we learn along the way are those lessons we learn for life.

Snail - Well done for your FD. I have the exact same thoughts every time I fast. The temptation soon goes tho.

Gobble - It’s funny you say that about your 3rd FD not resulting in a loss. I’ve tried numerous times in the past to shift a bit of extra by throwing in a 3rd. Soon learnt not to bother as it does nothing for me.
I’ve just converted your loss into lbs and that’s a really big loss. Huge well done.
I’d say anything under 800 was a FD and 800 - 100 was a mini.

Pink - how about bovril / oxo or lots of posters rave about Miso soup I think you can buy paste in the supermarket to make a hot soup.

43 - well done for today and good luck for tomorrow.

Ghost - honestly it’s whatever gets you through on your FDs. I bought some especially for NFDs but I do have them now and again on FDs especially when it’s cold and tea / coffee just won’t do.
Re the snacking from the fridge I used to do that a lot usually things like cherry tomatoes & ham o made a point of if I’m going to do it to put it on a plate and turn it into a meal and it’s definitely helped.

FD done, was intending a mini FD but have been so busy today couldn’t be bothered making a proper tea just for me so had ham tomatoes 4 eggs and pickles.

Hopefully that will shift the excess weight and I am to be much more mindful next week to keep on top of it.

FD done, boiled egg and veg sticks, veg chilli, and a weight watchers ready meal. So weird how hunger pangs work, at 9.30 I was starving but by 11 I was fine. I feel completely fine in terms of energy through the day as well. I also had to do a 45 minute walk to get ds to sleep, double whammy of exercise plus keeping me busy.

Well done, all the Thursday fasters 

Congrats on your SV, Gobble
You are averaging 1kg per week, which is quite quick loss, so I recommend you stick to just 2 FDs

• you are unlikely to lose more quickly than that with a 3rd FD and also 4:3 is less sustainable

Weight fluctuates naturally a couple of lb, due to hormonal swings, retained water, undigested food
So, look at the weight loss trend over weeks, rather than trying to puzzle out a particular week, certainly not daily blips.

At your weight and rate of loss, I recommend you count up to about 800 as an ok FD and don't add in extra Fds or minis.

One of the advantages of 5:2 is that the 5 NFDs help train you how to eat "normally" to make these maintenance days.
This training is what enables lifetime weight maintenance
So, 3 consecutive NFDs, or several, won't be a problem in future

What helps to stay within TDEE are good habits:

• No snacking or grazing ever Nothing between meals, including lattes, booze or even fruit If you allow snacks on weekends & holidays, you are just perpetuating the habit
• Be sensible about the amount of "treats", especially sweet ones and only have as part of a meal
• Stay within NHS alcohol limits

Well done on overcoming wobbles, MrD, snail

Pink Maybe regard Marmite as medicine to glug down, i.e. not expected to taste nice

If it nauseates you, alternatives to 1 teasp Marmite are:
1 tbsp unsweetened soy sauce or a hot Bovril (each also 10 cals)
or miso soup (check label, should be about 3t cals per portion)

duck I bought the Kindle version of Jung's book when it came out

His research is interesting, but it is heavily focused on treating patients, mostly with serious kidney disease and consequent T2 and high BP
Hence his various fasting regimes are imo too severe for basically healthy people and too restrictive in food types.

Mosely is an excellent writer - after all, communication is his longterm job - and being a qualified doctor does enable him to assess other peoples' work and combine it really well into a WOE that is accessible for most people.
However, he has also focused recently more on helping those with T2 / preT2 or insulin resistance, probably because of his own T2

imo, starchy carbs are healthy for those who don't have such problems and some people are unnecessarily depriving themselves by permanent low carbing.
What noone actually needs is junk carbs, i.e. sugary crap - cake, biscuits, sweets etc - or crisps, pizza, takeaways - or beer etc
They should be occasional treats, not normal daily food

Many folk who think their body can't handle carbs just need to give up the crap and keep the healthy, less processed ones, that humans have been eating for millenia, just not in super-sized portions.

btw, Mosely's recent suggestion of 800 cal FDs works for most men but not so well for many women
and he took a while to catch on that while he could "eat what he wanted" on NFDs, many people had to adjust their ideas of what that really meant.

So we have to examine the excellent work on fasting by several doctors and choose which approach to follow based on individual factors like sex, health, meds, insulin metabolism, hormonal issues as well as age, height and weight.

Hi all, checking in for a FD here. Think it's going to be a tough one as we are travelling to see family this eve which involves long car journey, short flight followed by another car journey, hopefully arriving about 1am. I usually go to bed early on FDs, not today obviously!! Have planned a 2 egg omelette for mid / late afternoon and then a salad with cottage cheese for in the car on the way to airport so hopefully that will get me through!

Friday morning weigh in and I am 10st 6.6lbs which I think means a sum total of 0.2lbs down this week. That is actually better than I expected as although I lost 2.6lbs in week 1 I then went on the hen do last weekend and put 2lbs of that back on! So at least I have rectified that.

Am determined not to sabotage myself again this weekend hence a less than ideal FD today. Am also going to explain to DMIL that I will sort myself out for food, have packed a swimsuit so will try and swim and walk too as not home until late Mon.

I have read through the thread but so many to comment on and if I go back during writing a post on my phone I lose what I have written but well done all. It is very motivational to read everyone's updates. Snail do you have an outside pool at work or just one close you can use at lunch? Either way sounds fab!!

Good luck 43 and any other Friday fasters I have forgotten / missed and enjoy the bank holiday weekend everyone

Just entered today's weight into my tracker and I am .2lbs heavier than last Friday not lighter!!! Anyway I am focusing on the 2.4lbs down over two weeks, not this week's very slight gain!!!

I'm aiming for a mini today as feel a bit Bleurgh after pizza last night. I'm going to a friends for lunch (she's doing slimming world) and is making quiche with salad then I'll have dinner (chicken pasta) and I should be well within 1000 calories.

This morning I weighed 131.6 which is exactly 2lb less than last Saturday.

Morning all

Scales showing a loss of almost 3.5lb this morning

That is a total of 1stone 6.5lb and an average of 2lb a week (if I worked it out correctly!).

Morning everyone, day 2 of my first ever b2b but feeling slightly better about it after reading about your day homemade good luck on your fd under those circumstances. And don't worry about the gain, a couple of good fds and that will be off.

Well done on your sv wreck

Plan for today is subway salad for lunch maybe some yog / berries then either a mushroom omelette or ready meal with veg later and LOADS of water!

Good luck fasters and weighers

Wow well done darcy

Thanks 43, good luck for your day 2 of b2b! You'll smash it in sure

that said I'm sure until my phone corrected it!

BCF - I’ve only just reached fasting section in the book. He’s covered Atkins and low fat so far but I do believe I may be wrong that he promotes long fasting periods water fasts. I ended up leaving a group on FB as they were into eating noting for 48-72 hours and I just found it too extreme.

Homemade well done for planning ahead. Weekends are hard but you sound in a really good place.

Tangled - you should be good if your friends doing a SW quiche it’s low fat but they are quite low in calories. Actually I quite liked them and I’m wondering if I get full fat cottage cheese I could adapt it to our WOE.

Well done on your loss this week Darcy. 1stone 6.5 is a huge amount to loose. Congratulations your nailing this.

43 - good luck for your B2B today, it’s fine honestly and you get extra calories so that’s a bonus.

Thanks quacking. I'm not keen on the whole ethos of slimming world tbh but some things are definitely good (like all the home cooking). I'm looking forward to a big old gossiping session

Morning all, NFD here, 1.2lb up on last Friday so I'm guessing totm gain, did pee a lot yesterday but clearly not all gone yet. 3 800cal fasts since then so I know I will have lost really. Going to drink plenty of water today to keep the fluid moving.

Got to work on essay today but will look at some strength workouts on YouTube and try to find one I like, work on my "growth mindset" and plan to get disciplined rather than just motivated as motivation is fleeting...

Thanks quacking it is a lot isn't it - more than both my (heavy) DC at birth put together! Unfortunately it isn't a lot in the scheme of how much I have to lose! Still a long way to go, but I'm certainly happy with my progress. Currently 16st 7.6lb with a BMI of 38.7 so a looon way to go, but certainly creeping ever closer which is all I hope for!

thanks quacking and darcy and you are definitely going in the right direction darcy

gammel keep plodding away and it will come off, totm gain is a pain but most people get a whoosh afterwards, good luck with the essay