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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 76: Your body needn‘t be a temple, but join us to stop it being a junky drive-thru.

989 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2018 23:10

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Pinkvici22 · 02/05/2018 22:05

Come to bed to ensure FD is complete at 527!

BigChocFrenzy · 02/05/2018 22:50

That's an excellent 1st FD, blue

Noidea On an NFD, when your DH starts tucking in to say a juicy steak, you should cut yourself a prime piece from his plate, less messy than stabbing him

Well done on successful FDs too - wreck, purple, blue, friendly, Noidea, Smiled, Pink and any other fasters
Night all Smile

OP posts:
Motheroffourdragons · 03/05/2018 07:07

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

bluerunningshoes · 03/05/2018 07:50

breakfast never tasted so good :o
but I am feeling a bit weak & tired today. is that normal after a fd or just me?

quackingduck222 · 03/05/2018 07:50

Well done Tangled, Running Shoes, Ghost, smiled and purple on your FD

Little Lady that’s interesting you say asda & sainsburys now stock the cauliflower pizza base as up until now only Iceland has. Not tried them picked them up and put them down before as they are quite expensive.

Definitely be worth trying if you like pizza as some of the healthier subs are great. I’m converted to carrot fires instead of chips. Surprisingly tho as I’m not stuck on carrots.

No idea- omg that’s so funny but I’m angry for you. My DH has learned his lesson after the quality street incident in 2004. The git ate my entire tub I had for Xmas. Angry

Well done Apple on your 5k and eating within TDEE.

Hello MotherOf - I do hope things are less hectic for you now. Well done for getting back to fasting the first fast is always the hardest. But your back here and that’s all that matters.

FD for me was unsuccessful it was actually a mini. Will probably do another mini today and will order a food shop and aim to be better through the week and concentrate my efforts to the NFDs.

Pinkvici22 · 03/05/2018 08:03

blue I am totally with you on his great breakfast tasted this morning! I don’t feel weak at all but did feel dreadful last night, exhausted, weak and achy. DP told me I looked slimmer today Blush...he may be just trying to get in my good books but still!

quackingduck222 · 03/05/2018 08:14

Pink - after a FD you definitely do look slimmer especially in the stomach. I worked out that back last year and if I ever want to look great on a night out I always fast the day before.

WreckTangled · 03/05/2018 08:25

I rarely eat breakfast, maybe only at the weekends.

NFD here hooray! Not sure if we might go out for lunch at work as our network will be down for a few hours so we won't be able to do anything... have packed a healthy lunch anyway.

snailhunter · 03/05/2018 08:58

FD for me today. Going to be a tough one as my mood is really low - not sure why! Prob because no chance of escaping for a swim today. Or perhaps my period is going to magically and unexpectedly appear after refusing to arrive last month, also unexpectedly. Such fun, not.

Oh, and I was feeling sorry for the dog because we have the carpet fitters in today making all sorts of horrible noise, so I gave him his squeaky toy. That means I have to listen to not just the carpet fitters but also the squeaky toy...

CheshireSplat · 03/05/2018 09:02

Thanks for all the Kefir information. I think there might have been a storyline on the Archers recently when did I turn into my mother??!!

I'm really disappointed with myself. Had such a good start to the day yesterday, a lovely home made soup and brown bagel lunch, and then..... popped home for 10 minutes before getting DDs for football practice and made a cheese, cucumber and pickle sandwich which turned into a bit of a binge with salted peanuts and raisins as well, got home for an hour before badminton and had something else then, then after badminton at 9.40 had a massive risotto with roast veg with DH, then had a work call from 10 - 11.40 and after that had a piece of toast with cheese, because I'd been working late and thought I deserved it. So this morning was back on my Monday weight even though I've done a b2b.

I have have have to get away from snacking because (a) I'm alone in the house or (b) because I feel I've earned it. This is why I'm in this position now, but I guess 20 years' bad habits are hard to undo.

I'm so good on the FDs, it's the NFDs that aren't so good. So, my plan:

back on MFP (grrrr)
banning bread

And a mini FD today.

quacking I loved your "picked her body out and though that will do" quote!

OohMrDarcy · 03/05/2018 09:19

Morning all

Checking in for a FD from Costa (!) Have ordered a pot of decaf tea with skimmed milk and NO CAKE OR BACON ROLL.... claiming an NSV right there! Can't remember the last time I hit Costa and didn't eat!

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 03/05/2018 09:24

Wow my MFP gave me a little celebratory message this morning Grin
It's NEVER done that before!
6.5lb down in the last month - I really can't believe it. Thanks so much for the inspiration all of you Star

Cheshire it's the snacking when bored I find is my problem too. Also polishing off the kid's leftover fish fingers an hour or so before eating my own dinner 🙄 oh well onwards and upwards - or hopefully downwards 🤣

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 03/05/2018 09:27

morning, well done on all the successful fasts, SVs and NSVs
My mini fd yesterday went to pot, i did so well until I got to the airport but there was nothing 'healthy' to eat and everything was SO EXPENSIVE so I ended up with a packet of doritos and a large glass of wine - oops!

FD today, and contemplating a FD tomorrow as I am out for anniversary dinner and cocktails sat and italian with friends on sunday, but never done a B2B before, so its 650 cals each day??

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 03/05/2018 09:30

wow excellent SV smiled that's a fantastic loss!!!
And an excellent NSV darcy

I'm in the same boat as you cheshire its difficult to undo 20+ years of bad eating, but we can do it Grin good luck with your mini today

littleladylawyer · 03/05/2018 10:18

duck here's the website for the ones they are selling: https://www.nodoughpizza.com
Sorry don't know how to do a proper link. I'll try one over the weekend and let you know the verdict!

cheshire and smiled bored/restless snacking is a killer, I find weekends the worst as I'm not occupied by work.

Great sv and nsv smiled and darcy!

fortythree I do b2b by telling myself it's not a b2b if that makes sense- so on day 1 I still tell myself I can have it tomorrow, then I normally get to lunch on day 2 (I try to 16:8 on nfds) and think oh well it's only half a day left might as well get the fasting over today then I'm done. I also stick to 500 and dinner only on day 1 in case I decide not to b2b on day 2. Day 2 I usually have a small lunch of say 200 then dinner of 400. See how you go, if tomorrow ends up being a mini or tdee you could always try making your meals out the only meals of the day, or eat very lightly before.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 03/05/2018 10:36

thanks for the advice little lets see if i can trick myself also Grin

quackingduck222 · 03/05/2018 11:23

Little lady thanks for the link. That’s great they are actually made up pizza. The Iceland ones are just bases and requires fart assing arround with toppings.

But for short of 400 cals for the whole thing that looks amazing. Similar sized pizzas are 400 cals per half so sounds good to me.

WreckTangled · 03/05/2018 11:35

Those pizzas look great! I'm interested in a review Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 03/05/2018 12:22

Congrats on your SV, smiled
That's a nice encouraging feature of mfp
Those around you will start to notice too

Welcome back, motherof4 & MrMother
Well done on your FD
Now you are back in the fasting swing

Pink Remember next FD to glug a teasp Marmite, mid-morning & mid-afternoon, to help avoid headaches or feeling week.
Also drink plenty of water

Yup, cheshire Once you start snacking, it often leads to a binge
Even when it doesn't, the overall calorie intake for the day and feelings of hunger are usually higher
Snacks hinder fat-burning

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 03/05/2018 12:31

With no snacks, your body can burn fat between meals,
i.e. the 24-hour period is fasting-dominant

This was the status for most of human history until about 1980, when Big Food developed “snacking“ to increase their profits.
It increased waistlines too - collatoral damage

When you snack, each 24 hour day is now insulin-dominant instead of fasting-dominant
(graphs from Dr Jason Fung)

5:2 Thread No. 76:  Your body needn‘t be a temple, but join us to stop it being a junky drive-thru.
5:2 Thread No. 76:  Your body needn‘t be a temple, but join us to stop it being a junky drive-thru.
OP posts:
WreckTangled · 03/05/2018 13:41

This isn't my healthiest NFD but I had the biscuits with my lunch which also included veg and fruit. Won't eat now until dinner pizza but will remain within TDEE and am drinking plenty of water.

CheshireSplat · 03/05/2018 13:45

Thanks BCF. I shall adopt the mantra "snacks hinder fat burning".

There's a thread that was in Active yesterday about what thin people eat that was fascinating. Not much according to the first few posts, I thought. So need to reset my brain!!!

On a more positive note, have just been to gym quickly in lunch break. 2,200 m on rower and then some arm weights (fixed machines sadly) and stretching on a big ball. My back made satisfying clicking noises!

BigChocFrenzy · 03/05/2018 15:33

wreck Lunch with fruit, veg and biscuits for pud is a perfectly decent NFD Smile

OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 03/05/2018 18:07

Kitchen closed on another successful FD.

I'm ridiculously chuffed that after last week's wobble I've got back into things well. It may be coming off slower this time, but I feel the lessons I'm learning along the way will hopefully mean it is sustainable long term for me.

WreckTangled · 03/05/2018 18:08

Finished my NFD about 50 calories over my TDEE happy with that.

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