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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 76: Your body needn‘t be a temple, but join us to stop it being a junky drive-thru.

989 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2018 23:10

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
littleladylawyer · 02/05/2018 10:22

duck glad you enjoyed afternoon tea, I'm sure the gain is mostly water and will be off in no time.

Well done katie, brilliant that you feel so positive that you can do it after the first fd, which is often the hardest!

Good luck today blue and pink and any other weds fasters.

cheshire that sounds a great morning, can't believe how much you've managed to get done before work!

Nfd here and looking forward to lunch after b2b. I find b2b shrinks my appetite significantly and my first nfd meal feels really satisfying. It's nice to eat and properly appreciate food rather than shoving it in without noticing or even really enjoying it.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 02/05/2018 10:26

Morning everyone, not checked in for a couple of days... not great 5:2 wise but last day in Dublin today and flying back tonight so tomorrow is a fd and I'm hoping I can make today a mini fd. It has been a very odd few days feeling completely out of my comfort zone and out of control in terms of preparing food etc. I've tried to make okay choices (apart from the guiness) but feel in my clothes that I've gained Sad and have been struggling with the 'oh fuck it' feeling and throwing the towel in... but I haven't, I will get through this.

Can't bloody wait to get home though.

Got 2 meals out this weekend also so it's all happening at once, argh... going to read back through the posts I've missed bit wanted to check in quickly between meetings Smile

snailhunter · 02/05/2018 10:31

Hah, I have no interest in machines! Would so much rather be outside! The only time I ever use the running machines is during winter when it's too dark to run outside and I'm doing interval training - I don't run in the dark as I know too many people round here who have ended up with broken ankles, as we're fairly rural with not many street lights and lots of potholes. As you say, I really just want to know how to lift properly. I was thinking about finding a weights specialist PT rather than one who just works at the gym.

FriendlyGhost · 02/05/2018 11:11

Checking in for my second FD of the week. I keep picking cold rainy days for them!
I weighed myself this morning after a NFD yesterday and I’m 2lbs down from last week. So this is actually working Smile I still have almost a stone to lose to get to Pre children weight but it’s progress.

WreckTangled · 02/05/2018 12:55

Lunch finished. 186 cals. Bolognese in the slow cooker for tonight, will have it with veg and do pasta for everyone else. Hope all the other fasters are doing ok

noideawhattocallmyself · 02/05/2018 13:46

FD today. I've had loads of water and a bovril so far - been mad busy at work so not had my mind on food.
Going to try to last out till dinner - thinking veg omelette followed by greek yoghurt and fruit.
Feeling like I've got more energy than usual and even feel generally more positive - with this any weight loss might be a bonus :):)
Good luck everyone!

bluerunningshoes · 02/05/2018 15:17

I'm not too bad.
had some rumbling stomach noises before my lunch break, but they have settled.
had some boullion for lunch.

so far
breakfast - glass of whole milk kefir (apparently around 110kcal), boullion 8kcals per cup
a few cups of black tea
and a cup of yogi tea.

dinner will be a wiener & salad (raw grated veg & olive oil)

had a chewing gum before a meeting. mood/patience is ok but dc's bedtime will be the judge for that Wink

CheshireSplat · 02/05/2018 16:04

blue what is Kefir? Is it cheese?

CheshireSplat · 02/05/2018 16:05

Probably not, if it was in a glass! Sorry, should read properly.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/05/2018 16:15

Well done on your SV, friendly
You seem to be losing at a sensible rate

I agree that running at night is risky even in a group, snail that's when a treadmill is useful
I know one local group that runs with headlamps on through the countryside, but I wonder if they really have safe footing

OP posts:
FriendlyGhost · 02/05/2018 16:23

FD has been a massive struggle today. We’ve been stuck in all afternoon because of the rain. Dd2 has napped for approximately 15 minutes all day and dd1 is in a non sharing mood. There’s been a lot of squealing and it’s taken all of my willpower to not yell or bury my face in cake. I wanted to last until dinner time but I had an egg, tomato and a yoghurt at lunchtime because I was so hungry my stomach hurt. Only a couple more hours until I can eat dinner. I still have about 350 calories left which isn’t too bad. I need to get out of the house on FD afternoons in future.

bluerunningshoes · 02/05/2018 16:33

cheshire kefir is fermented milk (good gut bacteria and all that)
tastes a bit like yoghurt but is less solid, more lassi consistency

snailhunter · 02/05/2018 16:39

Aaargh, I know the feeling, friendly. Children are so brilliant at sabotaging FDs! You've come this far and done amazingly well! Is there anything you can do to distract yourself?

I was going crazy sat at my desk so I went for a swim in the outdoor pool during a mad rainstorm. It was awesome and I am now properly knackered, hooray. I find that if I'm properly tired I just don't get the urge to snack - that happens when I haven't exercised and am feeling bored and restless. Now to take the dog out, also in a mad rainstorm, which may not be as fun.

quackingduck222 · 02/05/2018 17:10

Pink - I hope you have a great FD.

BCF - I have been pretty relaxed as late. I’m mixing up my food a bit good meals, some not so good meals trying to get a bit of a balance so I’m not making different meals from DH each night. But honestly lately my weight has been all over the place usually up and as much as 7lbs. Normally after a bad meal I’d expect it to go up 3-4lbs and would naturally loose that the next day but it’s getting on my nerves now as I’ve not been that bad lately.

I’ve screen shotted your weight training tips and will look into that as it’s something I’m really wanting to do.

Gammel - I’ve felt the same. Very overwhelmed with it all. I keep seeing adds on YouTube but they seem to be paid apps. I went on YouTube and found a beautiful slim toned lady called Whitney Simmons and have bookmarked some of her videos. Didn’t know what I was searching for so picked her body out and said yep that will do Grin
Also liked her as she made a video about IF and tried it and liked it and decided to stick with it.

Purple- you’ve got this. It’s a temporary blip that’s all.

Darcy- That’s great news, you sound so determined and focus.

Bug - Good news. The scales are on the move.

Snail - That sounds a really good idea about finding a good weights trainer. I’ve dabbled in the past but have no clue what I’m doing tbh it’s so easy to hurt yourself / drop a big ass dumbbell on your foot.

Cheshire - I was going to ask what Kefir is as I’ve seen many posts about it and i don’t have a clue. Thanks blue shoes for the explanation. Where would you find it in the supermarket?

WreckTangled · 02/05/2018 17:15

FD kitchen closed on 497 calories Halo

purpleviolet1 · 02/05/2018 18:53

Thanks for the support Grin

I've managed a FD today. Not sure what the kitchen closed at but it's definitely within 500. Chicken mayo sandwich with two small slices of bread. I'm not even hungry.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/05/2018 19:25

Well done on your FD, wreck Halo indeed
and for persisting so well on a tough FD, purple

Nearly thee, friendly Just stay focused and you'll nail this
Have you drunk enough water and had some Bovril or Marmite ?

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 02/05/2018 19:26

nearly there < iPad going biblical >

OP posts:
bluerunningshoes · 02/05/2018 19:29

kitchen is closed

dinner was about 450kcal, so come in at about 570.

it wasn't as bad as feared, worst bit was just before lunchtime.

wrt kefir, not sure where supermarkets stock it, I would guess either with yoghurt or milk. I make my own with cultures I got from a friend.

littleladylawyer · 02/05/2018 19:50

snail that sounds brilliant, I do find being out in the rain quite therapeutic in a strange way. Completely agree about the urge to snack when bored, if I'm busy I don't think about food at all.

Well done wreck, purple and blue.

Good nfd here, sushi lunch and chicken and halloumi salad with lots of veg for supper when DP gets back.

Has anyone tried the cauliflower crust pizzas Sainsbury's and Asda are selling? Pizza is one of my biggest weaknesses so if there's a way to make them healthier whilst still tasting like pizza I'm sold!

FriendlyGhost · 02/05/2018 19:52

FD done at about 520 calories. I’m having a cup of tea though because I have at least an hour of feeding a baby before bed.
Bigchoc I had two mugs of hot water with marmite in today. Probably not enough water though. I’m better at that when it’s warm. I still feel a bit hungry but I made it.
Some independent health food shops sell kefir quacking. I used to have some in the fridge but it got disposed of when we moved house. This has reminded me to get some more.

noideawhattocallmyself · 02/05/2018 20:00

Kitchen closed at 560 - not bad - good mood completely gone though - got home at 7 from work and busy making a veg filled omelette when DH (who has already eaten several times today) started picking at my veg and wanting to taste my meal because 'it looked nicer than what he had eaten' - I very nearly stabbed him 😄😄

applelolly · 02/05/2018 20:51

evening all
well done to all those on fds today.
nfd for me today and I have been more hungry than usual. Ate within tdee though, and reasonable on the whole. Was really craving wine and/or chocolate this evening but went out for a 5k run instead!
FD tomorrow. Grin

applelolly · 02/05/2018 20:54

noidea I remember a work colleague telling me about when she was doing 5:2 she had just made herself dinner - only meal of the day - with 3 small boiled potatoes and some fish and her older teenage son came into the kitchen and swiped a potato off her plate and ate it!! Apparently she let him know in no uncertain terms she was not happy!!

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 02/05/2018 21:02

Well done apple!
And well done fasters!
FD2 here and I've managed to keep it to 450 today.
Cauliflower is deffo my friend Grin