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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 76: Your body needn‘t be a temple, but join us to stop it being a junky drive-thru.

989 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2018 23:10

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
WreckTangled · 01/05/2018 20:31

Purple I'm not sure what to suggest but definitely plan something for lunch in advance if you feel you need it. I know some don't eat all day on a FD but I have 'lunch' (200 cals worth max). I work through lunch so don't have a whole hour to kill I think I would find that hard too!

NoWayNoHow · 01/05/2018 20:32

Thank thanks bcf FlowersFlowersFlowers

applelolly · 01/05/2018 20:48

purple I am usually quite busy out and about visiting people for my work which works really well for keeping my mind off food, but I find it much harder if I have a day where I'm in the office a lot doing admin stuff.(although sometimes on a visit there are people who very kindly insist on giving me drinks and food which I have to nibble at so as not to appear rude, and then it can be challenging LOL) Try different days and find which works better for you.
hlbug sounds like you are doing loads of exercise - you definitely need to up your tdee for nfd LOL!

I am back from Body Attack and it was completely fine doing it on a fd (well, as fine as it ever is iyswim!) Also kept me busy for a chunk of the evening. I had my greek yog and raspberries when I got back and am finishing up on 460 calories. All good.
nfd tomorrow - really need to get one more long run before Sunday's 10K. Then fd on Thursday I think

Hope all fellow fasters and finishing up OK.

Pinkvici22 · 01/05/2018 21:23

Good NFD today! Logged all my food on MFP...only planned to log FDs but think I need to make myself accountable for now. 30 min run on treadmill too. It’s TOTM here too so that was tough.

BigChocFrenzy · 01/05/2018 23:56

Well done on the b2b, bug you sound expert at nailing those now
Excellent progress with the exercise - you won't get muscle aches once you get used to the class.
I agree about raising TDEE to the next notch

That's a good NFD, pink
I suggest you also try a pump class - useful for fitness and for firming up any flabby bits

mfp is a useful training tool if your "normal" eating is over TDEE.
Once you retrain your habits, you won't need mfp any longer

purple If you want to hold out on FDs until supper, then you need to stay busy, e.g. with a long walk that isn't around food.
You might prefer to split your calories and take a protein & salad lunch with you - it sounds best to stay out of places like Costa if they sell too much tempting junk

Well done, fasters, especially the poor souls working on May Day

OP posts:
yogi47 · 02/05/2018 06:24

Weighed in and STS... demanded a recount, repositioned scales but not even an ounce!! Confused Annoying as been very good and shown huge will power - no take away at weekend, no cakes, biscuits or cheese despite temptation, huge work stress and interview! Putting it down to not enough exercise, not enough water, not enough sleep and TOTM! Got a tricky (but nice) couple of weeks ahead tho with Bank Hols and then 5 days/4 nights away but will knock out a couple of FD in between. Keeping on.... good luck everyone fasting today.

WreckTangled · 02/05/2018 06:55

Signing in for FD. Weigh 0.4lb more than I did yesterday but it was a NFD yesterday so I think that's pretty good.

Food all planned out for the day.

Gammeldragz · 02/05/2018 06:57

Noway totm due here too, despite fast day yesterday I woke up feeling fatter which scales confirm as I've managed to gain a lb. Feel spotty, fat and rubbish. So yeah, sympathies - you're not alone!

I won't try to fast again today, I will be sensible and give my body what it needs.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/05/2018 07:07

yogi You did well to sts if it's totm - that usually adds a couple of lb which can depress some folk.

Everyone on totm:
Ignore scales for the duration !
Stay focused and the FD after the end of totm should release the retained water bloat, plus - if you've resisted the totm munchies - maybe a lb of fat too

OP posts:
bluerunningshoes · 02/05/2018 07:41

checking in for my first fast day.

small glass of kefir for breakfast, one carrot and low sodium marigold for lunch and then dinner. dh is cooking sausages and rosti...
will skip rosti in favour of salad

yogi47 · 02/05/2018 07:45

Thanks BCF Thanks - after B2B and TOTM I'm ready to eat the fridge, but going for bagel and peanut butter (I NEED it) and then Greek salad (more salad than Greek) for lunch. Out tonight! No snacking in between here....

katienana · 02/05/2018 07:51

Did my first proper fast day on Monday.
Had a poached egg at 1pm, then a small homemade burger (just minced beef, no.bun or anything) and salad when my.kids ate their tea. Was glad I did this as my youngest wanted me to feed him his pasta and it was hard not to pick! Then ate a veggie chilli at 7pm which was lovely.
It wasn't too bad in the end, I can totally do this!

quackingduck222 · 02/05/2018 07:57

Gammel - how lovely having to shop for a new wardrobe of clothes. You’ve done fantastic dropping that many sizes.

Lamb - blimey you’ve done it before and your going back for another go. Wow.

Noway - I hope you get better soon.

Purple- I can relate as I get bouts like this too. It’s so hard to stop when you start. For me I weigh see the damage and step away from the scales for a couple of days drawing a line. When’s your next FD planned for.

Bug - wow you’ve done a B2B with all that exercise. Fantastic.
I’m pleased your enjoying Zumba now, it is fantastic and fun. Pump sounds brilliant too. Your getting a good mix of different things in there.
I would say your ready to move your TDEE up as those types of classes do really work you hard. Where are you now in terms of near target?

Well done Apple on your FD and class. Body attack sounds hard.

Yesterday’s afternoon tea was lovely too lovely as I’ve gained just short of 5lbs. I’m considering a B2B today.
I spent a lot of time on YouTube last night as I want to incoperate weights into my fitness now as I’ve been stuck in the same routine for ages now so I’m going to give that a go. It’s basically the toning I’m already doing but incorporating a big dumbbell.

Pinkvici22 · 02/05/2018 08:05

Morning all! Second FD of the week for me. Sticking to black coffee and water until lunch (a couple of boiled eggs and celery), and tomato and basil soup for dinner.

snailhunter · 02/05/2018 08:08

Good luck all the first time fasters! I am totally fed up with having plantar fascitis and not being able to run. Going to cycle to the pool this afternoon to attempt to exhaust myself through exercise that doesn't involve being on my feet.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/05/2018 08:35

Well done on an excellent 1st FD, Katie

Good luck on your 1st FD, blue and on your FD2, pink

Sounds a good plan, yogi
Decent meals so you hopefully don't feelthe totm munchies in between

Duck that "gain" is just undigested food plus retained water
I recommend you relax and don't worry over daily blips - it usually evens out
An FD is fine, but a b2b may be ott as you are on maintenance

Nagging injuries are so frustrating for keen exercisers, snail
Spin classes are exhausting - and great for cardio fitness - if they are HIIT
Also, if you have access to a gym, this is a good opportunity for cross-training with lifting:
you can sit / lie on a bench / use machines - I did this when I couldn't stand properlyon my torn ankle ligaments

OP posts:
purpleviolet1 · 02/05/2018 08:49

Right The scales have given me a shake. 9st 0.5lbs. I was down to 8stone 11lbs before so need to get back to that and then downwards to 8 stone! I can do it!

OohMrDarcy · 02/05/2018 09:15

Morning all,

Survived the FD and feeling happy that I didn't let last weeks wobble throw me completely (which it could have easily done). This morning is showing a small loss so I'm a happy bunny and continuing on as normal.

HLBug · 02/05/2018 09:17

purple we're weight twins today - I also came in at 9st 0.5lb so a 0.5lb loss after STS last week which I'm happy with given my recent whooosh.

Gammeldragz · 02/05/2018 09:41

Quacking I want to start some weight training too, at home. Keep looking into it and getting overwhelmed. Need to buy some kind of weight first!

CheshireSplat · 02/05/2018 09:43

Morning all. Enjoying my NFD today. Woke at 6 so got up planning to do some weeding! (Don't need to get up til 7.) Then saw the rain (it's tipping down!) so did a pilates YouTube video, lots of kitchen job to radio 3 so I couldn't get annoyed at the state of the world. DD1 and I did v relaxed 🎹 practice, I didn't need to dash off to a meeting in Manchester and I had 2 eggs from our local farm, scrambled with chipotle chillis for breakfast. Left for work at 8.50 feeling our I'd had an excellent start!!!

You can tell it's not TOTM here! Seems you're all synching like we did in our student juse when I was 20!

snailhunter · 02/05/2018 09:54

My gym is very small and doesn't do classes, sadly, but yes, good opportunity to start doing some lifting! I have been thinking for a while about booking a session with a PT to learn the best techniques and put a routine in place that suits me.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/05/2018 10:08

Gammel, duck You can do weight-training at ho e with just bodyweight moves

  • they work the big muscle group which makes far more difference to shape than working the small ones

Also, the small ones are usually automatically worked alongside the big ones, at least enough when you are just starting lifts.

What I recommend with bodyweight, to work all the major muscle groups, plus abs:

  • Pressups
  • Tricep dips on a step
  • Deep squats
  • Deep lunges (only as far down as you can go comfortably for knees)
  • Plank
  • Side plank with hip raises
  • Leg raises

See * our 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #33 OP for detailled instructions and pictures of these and other exercises
Everyone welcome to post there if you'd like a personalised plan Smile
In a week or so, I'll start a new Thread #4 with lots more links & videos, as that thread is nearly full

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 02/05/2018 10:20

snail The main thing you need from a PT is to learn the correct form for the lifting exercises, to make sure you don't hurt your back, or drop weights on your toe Wink

Don't let them stick you on cardio machines - treadmills, elliptical trainers etc - like a hamster on a wheel

  • it's cheaper for gyms and they like you to use those gadgets, because it keeps you quiet and out of the way.
However, they are not an effective way to really boost fitness and the calorie burn they claim is too flattering. It's better to take a cooldown walk outside or a run.

The only one worth bothering with is a rowing machine
Maybe weight machines too, if you are not confident about barbells and dumbells.

Best also to state you do NOT want nutrition advice and don't mention fasting - many PTs don't keep up with science and are still into snacking and eating 5-6 times per day in case you faint Hmm

Pro lifting trainers often use fasted training and intermittent fasting to boost performance, but the PT level you usually get at gyms is way behind leasing edge science

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 02/05/2018 10:21

leading edge science

OP posts:
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