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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 76: Your body needn‘t be a temple, but join us to stop it being a junky drive-thru.

989 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2018 23:10

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
applelolly · 28/04/2018 21:24

gobble well done on your loss. Good luck for FD tomorrow.
quacking Id forgotten I said we'd go today, but couldn't not go as Id been promising her for ages. I am planning another trip and will try and factor it in!
For a Saturday today has not been too bad. I skipped lunch. Had hunters style chicken, boiled potatoes and veggies for dinner. Then had 2 x gin and diet tonic and 1 bottle of beer. Snacked on 3 wheat toast with hummus, small bag of popcorn and a single square of chocolate. Have logged everything and still come in around 2000 so not too bad.
Need to have another sensible day tomorrow. Fingers crossed.

Gobblebox · 28/04/2018 22:07

Thanks applelolly.
I find MyNetDiary more user friendly than mfp if anyone is looking for an alternative app

BigChocFrenzy · 29/04/2018 00:10

Can you just use mfp to count calories, without giving it any info about yourself wrt weight, exercise etc ?

You only need to count cals on FDs, blue and I would suggest 800 FDs, since you don't particularly need to lose weight.
Obviously, we make FDs as nutritious as possible, with plenty of veg, no sweets

For NFDs, no need to count cals, just improve food types
Your post was useful; you've already got some good habits for your liver - you don't drink or snack Smile

For a damaged liver, medical consensus is to cut out the kind of fats in cheese, fried chips, anything else deep-fried.
Also, check the amount of sugar you are consuming and cut out some more harmful forms:

I recommend:

  • Cut out powdered fruit sugar or fruit compote, if you currently use these Research shows that fructose in a processed concentrated form - as distinct from whole fruit - is not good for the liver
  • Cut out fruit juice and dried fruit
  • Cut down salt
  • Keep fruit to no more than 2 portions on NFDs (Mosely's recommendation) and try keeping FDs with 0 or 1.
  • Cut out takeaways, as you can't be sure what's in them, but they usually are fatty & sugary for flavour
  • Boost fish, beans, lentils, peas

and these swaps:

  • 1-2 squares per day of 90% cocoa choc instead of choc - cut out any other
  • natural unflavoured yoghurt, especially Greek, instead of cheese
  • baked chips / oven potato instead of deep-fried chips or mash
  • low-sugar fruit e.g. berries, apples, pears instead of high-sugar tropical fruit, e.g. bananas, mango, pineapple
  • porridge (not instant) instead of sugary breakfast cereals
  • rye / wholegrain bread instead of white, brown/red rice instead of white, quinoa instead of white pasta
  • lo-salt or sea salt instead of ordinary salt
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 29/04/2018 00:12

Well done on your SV, Gobble

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 29/04/2018 00:13

and well done too on youir SV, pumper

OP posts:
Hockneypool · 29/04/2018 08:08

Quacking well done on your 50 miles.

Working again today looking forward to a quiet day off tomorrow. I have planned fast days for Tuesday and Thursday next week.

WreckTangled · 29/04/2018 09:59

NFD today but will be careful as FD tomorrow and Wednesday.

Keeping track of my calories on NFD's has made me realise how much I must have been consuming before Shock no wonder I was putting on weight!

Good luck to any Sunday fasters

bluerunningshoes · 29/04/2018 10:13

thanks again bigchoc have finally found the tape measure in dc's drawing box

waist 88cm
height 175, so that's 51%

cheese

Gammeldragz · 29/04/2018 10:17

Sunday fast for me today, then Tuesday and Thursday. Yesterday was a proper feast day, but my other NFDs were well under TDEE so should average out fine. Couldn't finish my pudding, I left some rather than just eating after I was stuffed - which I consider a massive NSV.
Today will be chicken thighs and veg for dinner, black coffee and water until then and I'm taking DCs swimming so that will keep me away from food. Still full from yesterday anyway.

Good luck to everyone else, whether fasting or not.

bluerunningshoes · 29/04/2018 10:40

how does cream cheese fare?
I sometimes strain kefir if I have too much, would that be 'good' fat?

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 29/04/2018 10:42

Oh dear it all went a bit wrong for me yesterday too... I had Greek yog and fruit at 1pm then we had chicken pesto pasta for dinner but I substituted my portion of pasta for courgetti and I was hungry by 9pm so smacked for the first time in ages Blush oops. Off to Dublin for work in a bit so the next few days are going to be difficult also.... will try my best to do an fd if I can.

Well done on your sv's pumper and gobble

Pinkvici22 · 29/04/2018 14:03

Can I join please? I’ve got 20lbs to lose...

Gobblebox · 29/04/2018 14:23

Welcome pink. I have he same as you to lose 30lb if I’m being really honest more seasoned casters will be along soon with their pearls of wisdom. But the first post has all the info you need for now.
This the beginning of week 3 for me. But to be honest week one wasn’t that great as I didn’t track my calories. Some do some don’t. I’m firmly in the vamp as those have to for the first few weeks at least.
1st weekend FD going well for me. I’ve yet to consume anything but water and a coffee. Feeling hungry now though. Going to try and push through until 6/7 tonightConfused. Looking forward to tomorrow’s NFD.

Gobblebox · 29/04/2018 14:24

Apologies for the spelling mistakes. I hope you get the gist. I’m fighting hunger pangsGrin

snailhunter · 29/04/2018 14:38

Do not fear 43, tomorrow is another day!

Well done weekend fasters! I am in awe of you. I'm a big fan of pushing through till the evening before I have anything.

Looks like I am going to have to scale down my half marathon training temporarily as my plantar fascitis has flared up, aaaargh. I am wearing special inserts, putting ice on it, and doing special exercises but I suspect the only way I am going to get rid of it is by not running for a while. I'm going to do lots of swimming and cycling next week so hopefully fitness will not be affected.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/04/2018 14:55

Welcome, pink Smile
Quite a few folk here with that kind of amount to lose, so probably 5:2 twins & triplets for you

Don't worry, 43 If that was an FD, then fasts are never failed, merely postponed
It's very difficult when you are away from home, so I suggest you plan an FD the day after you return

As soon as FD supper is finished, it's best to glug a glass of water, then clean your teeth - it really discourages snacking.
I presume you mean "snacking" not "smacking" - which is a very different issue Grin

wreck mfp has given many people a shock reality check
It's so easy, with food being pushed at us all the time, to consume way more than we think or need
However, now you've had the lightbulb moment and you are forming new habits on your NFDs

snail It's a bugger, but that kind of injury needs to be rested.
Swimming & cycling will keep your cardio fitness high, but you won't lose it anyway with even a 3 week break
If you belong to a gym, I recommend spin classes, which can be very HIIT

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 29/04/2018 15:08

blue The medical opinions I've read state that high fat from dairy, especially cheese, is an issue for a damaged liver,
so I would expect that's regardless of whether this is hard or soft cheese.

Chicken skin, cured meat (bacon, salami), sausage, pate, fatty meat & crackling are also mentioned as things to avoid, when letting your liver recover

So, I recommend you go for lean cuts and get your fat from fish or plant sources
e.g. replace cream cheese by natural peanut butter, drizzle olive oil on salad or roast veg

Another recommendation for liver or kidney disease is cut out all fizzy drinks, both diet or sugary ones

btw, how did you measure the 88cm ?
Women should measure waist at the narrowest point, usually 2" above the navel, whereas men should measure at the navel

5:2 Thread No. 76:  Your body needn‘t be a temple, but join us to stop it being a junky drive-thru.
OP posts:
bluerunningshoes · 29/04/2018 15:50

I have measured at the narrowest (which for me is closer to the hip than ribs)

thanks. will just have to live without cheese for a while and 'feed' the kefir with skimmed milk.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/04/2018 16:18

Sounds a plan, blue Smile
For your particular bod, you probably need to lose a few lb, some of which will be internal fat, even though you are healthy BMI

btw, unless you are recovering from an infection, or meds that have been stopped, you may need to permanently change your eating preferences

OP posts:
Gobblebox · 29/04/2018 19:18

FD ended with me eating a bowl of shredded pork stir fry. No idea of calories though. It was impulsive as DH cooked it and he was probably heavy in the stir fry sauce. I had a meal
Planned and just couldn’t be bothered once I entered the kitchen.......Although I kept it to a cereal bowl full so I’m guessing 600kcal due to the sauce. I also did a 70 min workout today. Anyway I don’t feel like I’ve blown my FD but I am feeling a bit meh. I can’t explain it. Am I just missing my Sunday night treats..... I’ve done well this week and ended it well (for once) but now feeling a bit like a have a mountain to climb. I guess the realisation of the length of the journey ahead has just hit me. Just sharing my woes Confused

WreckTangled · 29/04/2018 19:28

Gobble I'm also feeling as though I have a long road ahead of me. I think you kind of hope it'll be 5lb a week loss when you know, realistically, it's not so it's going to take much longer. I like to think that slower weight loss means more likely to keep it off though!

Gobblebox · 29/04/2018 19:31

Yes I think I have to focus on day to day changes and celebrating those rather focusing on where I have to be. I haven’t told anyone that I’m doing this in RL and I have a household of boys who eat all day and lose weightGrin. feeling a bit sorry for myself. I’ll snap out of it in a minute Smile

NoUnderpantsinSpace · 29/04/2018 20:31

Hello everyone!
My Mum has finally left (I need tips on how to make her only stay 10days as a max when she visits!). It is stressful having her here.

I think I'm still 1kg down - so all is not lost. I'm hoping to jump back into a FD this coming week. We have the kids home for the next two days and then the rest of the week is my own to decompress....
Then it's my birthday at the weekend Blushsoooooo well there will be cake...

BigChocFrenzy · 29/04/2018 22:53

Another reason to avoid processed sweet treats:
one of the most widely used red food colourings - E120 / carmine - is made from crushed up bugs Envy < not envy >

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-43786055

I wonder what else we didn't realise we've been eating Hmm

OP posts:
bluerunningshoes · 29/04/2018 22:56

naw, can't get excited about carmine. I know what it is and how it's processed and it's probably safer than lots of other food dyes.