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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 76: Your body needn‘t be a temple, but join us to stop it being a junky drive-thru.

989 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2018 23:10

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
applelolly · 28/04/2018 08:31

morning all
well done to all yesterday's fasters.
nfd today and tomorrow for me. I am going to try really hard not to end up going totally over today though. usually have a couple of drinks on a Sat evening, but then the snacking starts ...its a really bad habit and I need to break it! Will be trying hard today!
I'm off to have my hair cut in a bit, wonder if I could ask the hairdresser to trim off 1 lb of hair LOL Wink

Gobblebox · 28/04/2018 08:42

Morning. I feel compelled to check in and gather support for these two NFDs ahead. This is usually when the hard work during the week goes to pot. But I am determined to stay within tdee. I don’t think I’ve done that on a weekend for.......well a long time. But I think the weekend NFDs are Henley to nailing this WOL for me. Good luck to those on the same mission this weekend and those even braver weekend FDers.

Gobblebox · 28/04/2018 08:43

Henley = the keyConfused

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 28/04/2018 09:47

Good luck apple and gobble
I sometimes try and save a few hundred calories from my weekly nfds to compensate for any treats alcohol on the weekend, it is difficult though as the urge to snack is weakened by the alcohol.

Managed okay with fizz and chinese takeaway yesterday although I had a handful of chips and some rice and my stomach was not that impressed, I think cos I've been eating low or practially no starchy carbs...

Hope everyone has a good day, sunshine here so going to get out for a nice dog walk Smile

noideawhattocallmyself · 28/04/2018 09:53

Best of luck to everyone doing weekend NFD's today - I think this wil be my weakest time :) and hats off massively to anyone doing a FD over the weekend.
I weighed this morning after a FD yesterday and 3lb off - yay! Feel super motivated right now but who knows what the weekend will throw my way (or into my mouth! :) )

BigChocFrenzy · 28/04/2018 10:19

bug Fat food docu
Yes, there has been quite a bit of evidence that the type & processing of food matters,
which is why the 5:2 good habits I recommend include swapping to less processed food, especially carbs and lifelong limiting of junky food

I've sometimes referred to studies that indicated that people can consume 8% more calories if they consume a diet with v little junk than if their diet is junky.

My take:

  • food that is already partly broken down in processing needs less work from the body to complete its digestion
    hence why I often recommend
    . cutting out fruit juice - or compote - and having whole fruit instead
    . avoiding mashed potato
    . Swapping to less processed bread, rice etc & cutting down on sweet treats like cake & biscuits - which use heavily processed wheat flour

  • heavily processed food causes different reactions from the body's hormones & gut flora
    which over time can lead to insulin resistance, weight gain, poorer health, possibly lower TDEE than calculated

OP posts:
quackingduck222 · 28/04/2018 10:22

Argh I did post yesterday but my post hasn’t appeared.

Apple - it’s so true our weight fluctuates so much day to day. If you want to weigh daily that’s cool but I’d say to take it with a pinch of salt as it can be disheartening otherwise but pick a fixed day of the week to log your official weigh in. I use two profiles on my app daily and weekly and the graphs look very different on each. Also if you haven’t take measurements.

No idea - if your worried about over consuming can you have something lighter for lunch?

FriendlyGhost - don’t beat yourself up, these things happen but the fact you’ve changed what your having to compensate is really great. Things like that will really set you up for life.

Homemade- I also go with full fat Greek yoghurt. It’s so creamy and I have it most nights as a pudding straight after dinner.

Apple - well done on your class. Keep checking in over the weekend if it keeps you accountable.

Bug - I watched that documentary too. I thought the WH smiths bit with all the chocolate at the tills was shocking but not suprised as many of the shops now try to force you to have some at the tills. Also the cereal section was absolutely shocking.

Good luck for the weekend Gobble.

Is anyone fasting today? I had intended to yesterday but changed my mind at the last minute as I had a big bit of meat that needs using up.

I’m feeling pleased today as my 50 mile challenge medal has just come through for April. I’ve just signed up for 75 Miles for May, I think that’s going to be a real challenge this month but all good fun.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/04/2018 10:29

Gobble Many folk have found weekends can sabotage the week's good work
What worked for me is to make Sat or Sun a mini or FD

Although a few newbies binge more in the early days, imo the main issue is that even when a weekend binge was the previous "normal eating" , that is enough to make the difference between stopping further gain for the week and actually losing.
That is again partly due to the junkier types of food that is often consumed Friday - Sunday evening, but is mainly the sheer amount of calories, portion sizes plus the calorie bombs of takeaways & booze

OP posts:
applelolly · 28/04/2018 11:43

In the hairdressers which is good as I'm having colour and highlights done so I'll be here for ages and that stops me eating!
quacking well done in 50 mile medal. I got one in Feb. Sadly March and April haven't been so good for running, but I have added in other exercise. 75 miles would be a fabulous achievement.

Not hungry at all today, had usual yogurt and berries for breakfast. Thinking I may skip lunch and have a light dinner to leave spare calories for a couple of drinks and some pop corn later.... We always do a family movie night on a Saturday with choc and crisps etc.... Must. Resist. Lol

BigChocFrenzy · 28/04/2018 12:28

Congratulations on your 50 mile medal, duck
A great exercise NSV

OP posts:
applelolly · 28/04/2018 15:31

OMG I forgot I had promised to take dd3 to a new ice cream/waffle place this afternoon! I'm sat here surrounded by the most amazing crepes, waffles, sundaes etc.... Dd3 is tucking into and amzing waffle creation and I'm sipping a coffee! Willpower!

WreckTangled · 28/04/2018 15:47

Well done Apple! I'm about to start an hour long spin class 😱 I haven't been for ages and forgot my seat cushion so it's going to hurt!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 28/04/2018 16:45

Wow that's some willpower apple
Ouch wreck Wink

applelolly · 28/04/2018 16:45

good luck wrecked!
I am back from the den of temptation (otherwise known as the ice cream place!) and I have realised I have drink NO WATER today Shock
putting that right now.
Other than that I am doing OK and have only had breakfast so far. Need to plan something healthy and filling for tea. I am then planning on a couple of g&ts with slimline tonic tonight, and will allow myself a SMALL bag of popcorn whilst watching the movie with dc . Hoping I stick to plan and don't fall off the rails.
I really need to do a long run tomorrow too, and I wont do it if I drink and eat too much rubbish and feel crap so that is another motivating factor.

bluerunningshoes · 28/04/2018 17:34

hi, checking in.
have had massively bad liver test recently and dr wants me to diet for 3 months before repeating blood test.

so want to do 5:2 as I think that's more sustainable than low fat only for that time.

I do not want to lose weight (healthy bmi), just give my liver a chance to recover.

WreckTangled · 28/04/2018 18:17

I made it! Have come home and had jacket potato with tuna and a big salad plus melon for pudding. I'm going to hurt tomorrow.

Apple I'm awful for drinking, often I drink nothing but black coffee but that's changing now plus I bought myself a cool water bottle Grin

WreckTangled · 28/04/2018 18:45

Finished on 853 calories does that count as a mini fast day?

BigChocFrenzy · 28/04/2018 19:37

Welcome, blue Smile
With healthy BMI, it sounds like you need to change the type of your calories and permanently change to healthier habits,
rather than lose much weight.

You may need to burn viscous (internal) fat, especially around your liver

As a guide for that, what is your waist / height ? less than half your height ?
Ideal value depends on the individual body and frame, also age, but is less than 0.45

To help your liver, I suggest you make the next 3 months alcohol-free
and drink plenty of water
also cut out / cut right back on sweet treats & carby junk, i.e. cake, biscuits, crisps, pizza

Do you exercise regularly ?
If not, building up gradually would also probably help your health

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 28/04/2018 19:48

blue Fat You don't need low fat to repair your liver, but you probably need to change the type of fat:

  • Eat a lot of fish, moderate amounts of lean meat - if possible venison, organic chicken breast etc

  • Avoid fatty meat & skin, also preserved or processed meat, sadly bacon or salami. They all add high workload to the liver.

  • Also eat fresh (avoid slightly rancid) avocado, olives, nuts, seeds

Salt: many reliable sources recommend reducing salt to help fatty liver.
Move to unrefined sea salt, low sodium / high potassium and try reducing the amount by having more pepper.

OP posts:
bluerunningshoes · 28/04/2018 19:48

thanks

I'm a bit puzzled by my liver. I don't drink alkohol at all. and I don't snack.
though I do love chocolate and cheese and chips...
exercise - I walk a mile a day. probably should/could do more...

off to take measurements.

Pumperthepumper · 28/04/2018 19:59

Hey all, just checking it to the new thread. Am now 1.5 st off since January, 1 stone to go. Hoping to shift two pounds this week (B2B though, yuck!) then I’m on holiday for a week. Hope everyone is getting on ok 👍

bluerunningshoes · 28/04/2018 20:36

any recommendation for an calorie counting app?
a good alternative to mfp with their data breach

Gobblebox · 28/04/2018 21:03

Ive gone over tdee by 400 cal although this would normally be 1500 I suspect. I don’t think I can do a mini FD Tommorow then a FD Monday. So I am planning to start Monday early and do a FD on Sunday as bigchoc suggests. A weekend fast should help as I seem to easily fit into tdee weekdays (probably because I’m so busy with work all day then after school clubs with kids). I’ll see how that goes his week

Gobblebox · 28/04/2018 21:05

Oh yes forgot to say. I have lost 2kg since Monday. I don’t want to gain it back by eating like I have today again tommorow. Hence Sunday FD planned then good weekday NFDs (keep everything crossed and mouth shut tommorow)Grin

quackingduck222 · 28/04/2018 21:07

Thanks BCF & Apple.

Apple - how did your day go, that’s gutting about the ice cream place. We go every half term and I try and factor it into my week as Christ knows how many calories 1 portion is.

Tangled - well a mini is about 1000cals so I’d say you had a mini mini FDGrin.

Welcome Blue, not sure about a alternative to MFP I know there is some out there but can’t for the life of me think what the other recommend app was.

Pumper - wow your done fantastic. Good luck for your B2B this week.

FD done and in at 550 cals. Run pursponed until tomorrow due to headache.