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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 76: Your body needn‘t be a temple, but join us to stop it being a junky drive-thru.

989 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2018 23:10

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs.
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
noideawhattocallmyself · 27/04/2018 11:49

2nd FD today, going to weight in tomorrow even though it'll only be 5 days.
How do you manage weekends - it's my first weekend coming up and I know that's when my willpower is at it's weakest! Also on a FD do you tend to do nothing till dinner and then about 500 calories or do lunch and dinner but less calories per meal - I can't figure out which would work best for me - feel a bit like if I ate lunch then I'd go over with dinner as well!!

Homemadehopeful · 27/04/2018 12:11

noidea I only did my first FD last Friday and did three last week. FD 1 & 3 I split my calories into about 100 - 150 for lunch (A boiled egg with some salad vegetables and no dressing and on FD3 I also had a 41 cal bag of salted popcorn) and then dinner. On FD 2 I just had dinner which having eaten nothing all day I actually struggled to finish. I don't think one was any easier than the other tbh. I did worry that once I ate something I would wake up my stomach but actually the afternoon was ok. I would suggest trying both and sewing which works best for you.

Day 1 of week 2 for me today so fasting again and I have just eaten a very small bowl of bran flakes which was not on the plan. Am going to make sure it doesn't derail the rest of the day and aim for dinner at 6pm as have a meeting 7 - 9 so will at least occupy my danger time.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 27/04/2018 12:31

good luck for the weigh in tomorrow noidea re: fd's, its whatever works for you, some people keep all 500cals for dinner, others split it. Personally I have half for lunch and half for dinner.

As weekends go, it can be tricky, I've found if I skip breakfast (which I used to skip before 5:2) have a light lunch (salad or soup) and follow the no snacking rule Grin then that leaves me with some calories for some treats so I don't feel deprived... good luck! Oh and keep posting on here to sort of hold yourself accountable Smile

NoWayNoHow · 27/04/2018 12:38

homemade and Gammel well done on your SVs!

43 - great loss for you too, and happy anniversary! Enjoy those bubbles!

Out tonight for catch up with a mate, so trying to hold back some of the cals for dinner and wine and have had 600 across breakfast and lunch.

Good luck all you Friday Fasters!

FriendlyGhost · 27/04/2018 13:29

noidea I’ve only done two FD so far but i’ve found it impossible to last until dinner time. I can’t avoid the kitchen because I have to prepare food for the dc. I found a low fat yoghurt which is around 60kcals for breakfast and then some miso soup which is about the same for lunch kept me going. Then I had a tofu stir fry for tea. With low cal veggies like greens, mushrooms and carrot you can actually manage quite a big portion.
I’m trying to only weigh myself once a week. I find my weight really fluctuates otherwise and it can be misleading. I once lost almost 2lbs in an hour because of a breastfeed and a poo. That taught me to not constantly weigh myself and to be more patient.

applelolly · 27/04/2018 13:35

Thanks bigchoc I will stop weighing every day cause it is stressing me out! However just looking at weights from the day after second fast:(always weigh at same time of day, naked, same scales in same place etc) Last sat 12st 12lb, this morning 12st 13lb so I have in fact gained a pound which is beyond depressing. No idea where I'm going wrong. Sad So today I'm tired, grumpy and a pound heavier. This is not inspiring!

FriendlyGhost · 27/04/2018 13:50

I have just done three different calculators to find my tdee and have three different results varying between 1800 and 2200 calories a day. This doesn’t include breastfeeding but i’m not going to take that into account and will hope it just burns a few extra. My Fitbit reckons around 2200 as well. What are you all using to calculate?

applelolly · 27/04/2018 13:58

friendly I used the one linked in the first post of this thread. Advice is to set activity level one below what you think. Having said that best not to listen to me since I seem to be gaining weight! Lol

BigChocFrenzy · 27/04/2018 14:48

Friendly Best to use Mosely's TDEE Calc * (and yes, he says set activity level to one below what you think)

apple Sounds like you aren't doing anything "wrong"
2-3 lb fluctuations could easily hide a 1lb fat loss.
Umpteen people have worried like you, at some stage on their journey
Just relax, be patient and stay focused

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 27/04/2018 14:50

friendly There is no NFD allowance for BF, but there is for FDs:
EBFers 1000 cals, others 700 cals, but you can start at 1000 and ease down if you prefer

OP posts:
SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 27/04/2018 16:25

What's a BMR?

BigChocFrenzy · 27/04/2018 16:49

smiled Ignore BMR on 5:2
The FDs are far below it, the NFDs are well above it (TDEE)

OP posts:
FriendlyGhost · 27/04/2018 17:17

BOLLOCKS. I slipped and a slice of delicious gooey flapjack fell into my mouth. This is why I don’t lose weight. So no lovely carby risotto for dinner. I’m going to have a stir fry instead to minimise the damage.

Mosely’s calculator gives me 1900 calories which is a very decent amount. I should be able to manage that with a small amount of will power. Hopefully.
I hope the rest of you have had more successful eating days.

Homemadehopeful · 27/04/2018 17:53

Can anyone give me ideas for my last 150 cals on FD. Can't be meat or fish as I am veggie and bot eggs either as I have had two already today!

WreckTangled · 27/04/2018 18:02

Dinner finished. I think even despite my lunch I didn't go more than 10% over my TDEE. Hard to work out dinner as was all homemade.

FriendlyGhost · 27/04/2018 18:07

Homemade what about a yoghurt with some mixed seeds? Or a handful of almonds?

BigChocFrenzy · 27/04/2018 18:38

Yup, full-fat) natural yoghurt, especially Greek is very creamy & satisfying.
Add a few berries, flaked almonds & cinammon

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 27/04/2018 18:38

Or some hummus with raw veg

OP posts:
WreckTangled · 27/04/2018 18:44

Yes 1/4 of a pot of humous is about 150 calories have it with celery and cucumbers mmmm

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 27/04/2018 19:34

Oh no ghost how clumsy of you Grin can't you still have a small portion with a huge salad?

applelolly · 27/04/2018 20:12

been to body attack - actually didn't die quite as much as on Tuesday! Dinner done and I'm coming in around 1750 today.
I need to keep focused for the weekend as Sat/Sun is where it normally all goes wrong!
Well done to all those who have fasted today - nearly bed time!

BigChocFrenzy · 27/04/2018 20:55

Well done, Friday fasters Smile

OP posts:
HLBug · 27/04/2018 21:22

BCF I'm just watching the documentary Hugh Fearnly-Whittingstall did this week on Britain's Fat Fight (worth a watch if you have iPlayer in Germany?).

They have a scientist on from Cambridge University (Dr Giles Yeo) who is talking about "caloric availability" which he describes as how many calories you can get out of food as opposed to how many calories are in the food and how that isn't the same number. So it takes energy to extract calories out of food - chewing, digesting, break down etc. But if food has been highly processed (eg freezer ready meals) then you'll get more calories from these items of food as your body doesn't need to do as much processing itself. So you'll get more calories from a 400 calorie ready meal than a 400 calorie fresh meal you've cooked yourself. My mind is blown - I'm finding this absolutely fascinating! Have you ever come across this before?

Homemadehopeful · 27/04/2018 21:52

Thanks for the suggestions, only just in so going with yoghurt and raspberries to bring me up to 500.

Looking forward to 2 NFDs together Smile

HLBug I watched the HFW programme too. I had no idea that was the case before but when you think about it it makes sense. As he said with a ready meal a lot of the work of breaking down the meal has already been done for you! A good reminder of why it is important to cook proper meals and teach our children how to do this too!

SmiledWithTheRisingSun · 28/04/2018 08:25

I really like 0% Greek Yoghurt with frozen blues berries in, it's like eating* icecream homemade*
🍦** Smile