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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 75: Need to get back on track after Easter eggs ? The Fasting Fairy just sprinkled motivation dust on this thread.

976 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 27/03/2018 14:14

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2018 08:03

Well done, wreck Smile

OP posts:
MightyMunki · 22/04/2018 08:50

Anyone read MM’s article in the Daily Mail this morning? He is calling it the new 5:2 with 800cals on FD’s, apparently doesn’t impact the weight loss too much compared to 500cals.

Apologies if it’s already been discussed.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2018 09:35

It's been raised a few times on earlier threads, Munki

imo, from experience of 5:2 threads from #35 - #75:

800 cal FDs sometimes are suitable for these types of folk:

  • with higher (2400+) TDEE e.g. men / a lot to lose / very tall / young & very sporty
  • On maintenance
  • Accept slow loss in return - which is absolutely OK

but give v slow - or no - loss for those:

  • low TDEE e.g. women who are short / post-meno
  • "hard losers" due to PCOS, thyroid, meds etc
  • those who regularly average even 200 over TDEE on NFDs

For those who have problems managing 500
I recommend trying 800, at least to start - after a couple of months, you can probably start easing to 700FDs, then 600.

If loss tails off, then move to 3 miniFDs (850-1000 cals) per week - e.g. Mon+Wed+Fri - which usually gives about the same loss as 5:2 with 500 FDs

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2018 09:40

I suspect almost everyone MM meets in the BBC environment are: men / a lot to lose / very tall / young & very sporty / eats within TDEE on NFDs and doesn't eat junk food.

I'd be impressed if he showed 800 FDs bringing 1lb weekly for short / post-meno women who aren't very strict on NFDs and don't exercise like mad

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2018 09:49

I actually lost most of my weight on 800 FDs, although I was late 50s post-meno & 5'3"
BUT
I'm a lifelong exerciser, go to the gym 5-6 days per week and bike / walk everywhere (visually handicapped enough not to drive)
I also had to give up almost all choc & sugar in the weight loss phase
AND
I've always been near-teatotal so I gave up all alcohol

I've maintained on 800 FDs

OP posts:
TalkinPeece · 22/04/2018 10:06

Munki
MM is onto a nice little earner selling articles to the Fail nearly every week.
Often they contradict each other.
Ignore the Fail and watch what he says on the BBC
and what BigChoc says on here - cos she is unbiased in her opinions
whereas MM has to fit in with the political views of that paper Wink

quackingduck222 · 22/04/2018 10:25

43 - not eating until 4 is a great NFD.

Purple- that’s the spirit, fresh start Monday. Don’t beat yourself up life gets in the way.

Bug - good luck for your FD / mini today.

BCF - yes I think your right, I had a really good NFD yesterday. It’s quite possible it’s the heat it was very humid yesterday and I am quite delicate in the heat.

Well done tangled hope you have a great day.

Mighty I’ve seen this discussion on the 5:2 fb group. I never post but like reading the articles. They seem dead set against it as they are the “original plan” if a higher Cal FD gets more interest from folk then that can’t be a bad thing. Fasting at 500 in the beginning is hard so maybe as a higher start point would be good until your body adapts.

BCF - when you were in your weight loss phase were you having a very large calorie deficit due to the amount of gym work you were doing?

MightyMunki · 22/04/2018 10:33

I supposed as he had named it the new5:2 it was something radical and new. I personally find the thought of the 500cals quite hard but actually in practice it’s perfectly manageable. I have about another stone to lose so for me I don’t think the 800 would work too well, it just makes it seem more doable if that makes sense.

Homemadehopeful · 22/04/2018 13:52

Two good NFDs here yesterday and today. So far had about 550 cals today and aiming for 1500 so plenty left. Did lots of activity yesterday, an hours walk with the dog and a friend first thing followed by a 45 min HIIT class at lunchtime. Am planning second fast day tomorrow.

Really inspiring to see your journey snail as I am also 44, slightly taller than you at 5ft 5.5 and on Friday morning I weighed 10st 9lbs so still within the healthy zone, just at the top end. I would love to be about a stone lighter but often wonder if that is realistic as I get older so great to hear of others achieving it Smile

I definitely think for me an 800 cal FD would not be low enough to lose if I eat 1500 on other days and actually I still managed 2 meals out of 500 cals so will be sticking with that.

Hope everyone has had a good weekend and good luck to any fellow Monday faster Smile

WreckTangled · 22/04/2018 14:27

I'm at a bbq drinking wine. I have got 1200 cals left for the day though.

BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2018 14:45

duck I never counted cals on 5:2; in fact I just estimated the FDs too
Oh, yes I did - I calculated just my "Choc Frenzies" and found each alone came to 3000+ Grin

My advice to anyone who would prefer 800 is to try it and then review if loss is v slow

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2018 14:50

homemade Several of us middle-aged and / or post-meno have achieved our goal of weight as in our late 20s
(it used to be the norm for almost everyone to fill out naturally in their early 20s, going from very skinny "coltish" teen to full adult build)

OP posts:
HLBug · 22/04/2018 16:33

Smashing this FD. Have absolutely no interest in food today whatsoever. Now I'm just trying to decide whether that's been 3 this week...or my first one for next week. Hmm. Anyone else fasting today?

BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2018 16:50

I'm having an NFD, but I've fasted over 23 hrs from a big supper yesterday until now - just about to eat supper

I had a small mug of cocoa to start the day,
then chores, biked to the gym for 90 mins spin & weights, followed by lymph drainage massage on my ankle, followed by 70 mins leisurely walk along the Rhine, then biked back home.

  • Glorious 28C sunshine as we've had all week Smile
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2018 16:51

Keeping busy works for me wrt not feeling hungry
Hunger tends to come in a couple of waves, but soon goes again

OP posts:
HLBug · 22/04/2018 18:14

Right, that's me done. Kitchen closing at about 450-500 calories give or take an extra mouthful of DD's fromage frais. Feel much better for fasting today Halo

MazDazzle · 22/04/2018 18:18

Enjoy your bbq wreck and your wine! Well done for keeping track of calories under those circumstances.

It’s great to see lots of newbies joining the thread. This WOL really is life changing. Give it your best shot and there’s no looking back.

I’ve had a great weekend foodwise. Friday was a FD. On Sat I had 3 meals. Today I skipped breakfast and lunch and had a really satisfying dinner instead. I’ve had lots of fruit and veg, no snacking or alcohol and the few treats I’ve had, I’ve had with meals.

Planning on b2b FD Mon/Tues before we go on holiday.

WreckTangled · 22/04/2018 19:37

I'm feeling quite bloated so looking forward to a FD tomorrow

BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2018 19:52

Well done on your FD, bug
and on an excellent weekend, Maz before your hols

OP posts:
quackingduck222 · 22/04/2018 21:02

BCF - 3000+ wow, so easy for it to mount up. When I first started fasting I was using MFP on FDs only but I’ve only recently got scales. I now know most FDs were over estimated as I usually had cheese and my guesses were about double the grams they should be.

Well done Bug on the smashing FD.

BCF bloody hell, it’s outstanding the amount you do. Blows my mind. How’s the ankle doing?

Well done maz for having a good weekend. Good luck with you B2B.

Tangled - good luck for your FD. Me too this bloat is getting on my bloody nerves.

Good day today feel so much better decided to try The Tredmill today and if needed walk the miles I didn’t do yesterday as I’m slightly behind my miles challenge schedule. Managed 6.3 and my longest run yet. In it for the long haul now as bought new running shoes this week fitted by a proper shop and they were expensive so I’m committed.

MightyMunki · 22/04/2018 21:43

So having given myself a week off to just reasses, I’m picking up again tomo with a FD and have recruited my sister to join me Grin.

I’m quite looking forward to eating more mindfully this week again. Well done to all who fasted today.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 22/04/2018 21:57

Wow well done bug and maz for the weekend fd... that's some willpower!

bcf you sound amazing and so fit and on top of everything, that's some commitment to 5:2 Smile

Nfd today and I haven't mfp'd today (eek!) But had nowt until 2pm when I had a very small apple, 7 grapes and 4 strawberries with full fat Greek yogurt, then had chicken and courgette kebabs with salad and 1 pitta bread for dinner... but also 1 gin and 2 glasses of wine. I think I'm still within tdee (1800) just.... I even baked fairy cakes with ds and resisted them Grin

Fd tues and thurs this week I think... hope everyone has a good week.

Good luck munki

BigChocFrenzy · 22/04/2018 23:14

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This thread has almost filled up, so …

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🎺🎺🎺 ..... We have a NEW 5:2 / IF Thread # 76 ..... 🎺🎺🎺
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OP posts:
Gobblebox · 26/04/2018 19:09

Hello. I haven’t had time to read the Previous posts. I’ll catch up tonight. Just wanted to check in. My second week and almost through my 2nd FD. I learnt last week I have to track NFD. Last weeks were an epic fail on NFDs (who was I trying to kid)Blush. Luckily I didn’t weigh in as I was too chicken It may have put me off. But this week I have weighed twice and numbers have gone down. I am sticking to weighing in kilos because I don’t know what they mean so much so I don’t let so obsessed with the numbers (I’m an old stones and pounds girl). So I’ve tracked calories and have been eating to tdee and still been peckish (but due to snack habit more than anything else). How long have people found that the snacking habit takes to shift? I’m hoping a month or soConfused. I don’t think I can go below tdee just yet. Anyway I’ll read up once kids have done to bed. Looking forward to reading about my fellow 5:2 journeys.

slinkyme · 31/05/2018 12:00

Just checking in. Have been off the 5:2 wagon for the last 6 weeks or so as just too much stuff happening in personal life - events, holidays, ill health, family's ill health and exams. Have felt so guilty I haven't even been reading these threads. So this is a blind post.
But decided I need to get back on this. Not so much for the weight loss but I had definitely felt less energetic and not at optimum since I stopped fasting. Not great when you are dealing with a lot of stress. Am determined to get back to the good habits. Just checking in to keep me accountable. Will see how it goes today. Only tea so far. Will have a soup at lunch and maybe some roast veggies with a scrambled egg in the evening.

Sorry will catch up on all the news upthread on how everybody is doing.

On the weight side bizarrely about 3 weeks into no fasting I lost even more weight and went to my lowest 57.3 kg but weighing today I am at 59.1 so not paying attention to these for the moment until things settle.