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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 75: Need to get back on track after Easter eggs ? The Fasting Fairy just sprinkled motivation dust on this thread.

976 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 27/03/2018 14:14

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
southeastlondonmum · 20/04/2018 13:59

Quick note from me ahead of my big weekend. I had a vision of how I wanted to look and feel on this weekend. And I bought some new clothes for it. I feel fabulous! Clothes look amazing- my DH says so- and I feel amazing.
Thank you to all those that supported me on this journey!

southeastlondonmum · 20/04/2018 14:00

Also I tried my wedding dress on yesterday for children. 10 years on and I am slimmer than before ( I was a 12 for my wedding).

southeastlondonmum · 20/04/2018 14:00

Also I tried my wedding dress on yesterday for children. 10 years on and I am slimmer than before ( I was a 12 for my wedding).

NoWayNoHow · 20/04/2018 14:25

Wow, southeast what amazing NSVs! You deserve to feel proud and great about yourself. Flowers

permanentlyfrazzled1 · 20/04/2018 14:50

Hi Homemade. How's today going? I found it just took me a week or two to get into the routine. Today's my 2nd mini FD this week and have just succumbed to a mushroom omelette for lunch. Vegan stir fry for tea, without the noodles, unfortunately.
BigChoc it seems so hard to have to stick to the NFD rules whilst on holiday, with my 4 kids munching yummy cake in front of me, but yeah, you're right, it's the way to do it. 😣 I lost 2 of my holiday pounds after my mini FD Wednesday, so hoping to be back on track after today.
Friend's wedding and new dress shopping is now in sight, and I'll kick myself if I don't hit my target in time, so must stay focused.
Hope it's going well for everyone today. 👍

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 20/04/2018 14:55

wow well done southeast enjoy the feeling of looking fabulous Grin

southeastlondonmum · 20/04/2018 16:39

Thanks all. One last nsv to share. Just had a lower limb X-ray. The radiographer had a student with him
And was prodding me a lot and getting her to do it too. He then apologised but said I was good for teaching as 'I was quite thin and she could feel my bones' . No worries then Grin. On way to my weekend and looking forward to some Wine

BigChocFrenzy · 20/04/2018 16:47

Brilliant NSVs, southeast Congratulations on totally nailing your goal

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 20/04/2018 16:53

Are you losing inches, snail ?

Check you keep good habits on NFDs - especially no snacks & keeping NHS booze limits - and that you are generally within TDEE.
If you've done all that, it just takes patience, I'm afraid - after losing a good chunk, it is quite usual for your body to want to consolidate & rebalance its systems, before losing more.

If you are already within healthy BMI, then loss often slows down, as ntbo there is much less bodyfat available to burn

OP posts:
Homemadehopeful · 20/04/2018 18:02

Thanks all of you for the welcome and well wishes Grin

So far today has been ok. I had my egg salad at lunchtime which I had weighed (I have never weighed salad before, lots of other foods but never salad!!). Don't think I have drunk enough water as starting to get a headache so will make sure I drink plenty the rest of the day.
Dinner is going to be a quorn ready meal cottage pie for 219 cals with tenderstem broccoli and steamed leek & cabbage mix. Only problem is my calculations using mfp bring this in at 382 so may add a piece of fruit in for after dinner to get closer to 500. Or maybe another boiled egg.

What time do you all usually eat your calories?

I'm really hoping this weather stays so I can enjoy a glass of Prosecco in the sun tomorrow evening. Unfortunately where I am I think we are due rain!!

applelolly · 20/04/2018 18:13

hello can I join you all please? Am just committing to trying this again (tried half heartedly in the past) as I am keen on the potential health benefits plus I think it will suit me as a long term plan.
I have yo yo dieted for years. I have made improvements since Jan this year, mostly just cutting down rubbish, increasing healthy food and taking up exercise again. I have managed to lose a stone doing this, but have 3 more to go!
I have just done my second fast day today and have found it OK (obviously not quite over yet but think Ill make it!) I also went for a run today and found it fine. I was worried about combining this with my running but it was OK. I did go a slightly shorter distance than usual and ran laps of a shorter route in case I needed to bail but It felt much the same as usual. I am pleased with that as it makes it less complicated fitting fast days and running days into the week!
I am hoping to do my 2 fast days between Mon - Fri, eat slightly under tdee on the other 3 days of working week and then have some flexibility for some treats at the weekend as that is usually the hardest part for me.
will see how I go.

Homemadehopeful · 20/04/2018 18:58

Meant to also say that I didn't measure myself this morning but I weighed and took a front on and side angle mirror selfie. I was 10st 9lbs and on taking a long hard look at the shape of my body I wasn't happy with what I saw so will be using those photos as another source of motivation!!

MazDazzle · 20/04/2018 19:00

Homemade I save all of my calories for dinner. Once I start eating, it awakens the hunger beast!

Well done apple on getting back into the swing of things. Sounds like you have a good plan.

Today’s FD has been tough. I’ve managed though. Had chicken pad Thai for dinner. Planning on an early night, but first I’ve promised to take the kids out on their bikes.

My plan is to relax over the weekend, then b2b FD Mon/Tues. I get back from holiday just before the May Day weekend! I could try a FD over the May Day weekend. Or maybe Tuesday would be more realistic.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/04/2018 19:13

Welcome, apple Smile and well done on your 1st 2 FDs
It's good you are able to manage exercise on FDs - quick hard bursts are best, either HIIT, e.g. sprint intervals , or weightlifting.

For exercisers, it's much more reliable to account for exercise calories via TDEE Calc (Mosely recommends setting activity level to one below what you think)
rather than by gadgets

As you are interested in the heath benefits, remember also the 5:2 tips - which also speed up loss -

  • No snacking between meals
  • Stay within NHS alcohol limits on NFDs (no alcohol allowed on FDs)
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 20/04/2018 19:26

Sounds a good FD so far, homemade
I'd recommend the egg or other protein rather than fruit, lower GI which will keep you fuller for longer

With salad, it's the dressing you need to be careful about, what kind & how much - lemon / vinaigrette / apple cider vinegar / balsamic vinegar are all good choices

To avoid headaches, glug a teasp Marmite (it's only 10 cals) mid-morning & mid-afternoon;
this replenishes salt & minerals that may be depleted while your body is getting used to fasting

Most folk either split their cals between lunch & dinner, or save nearly all for dinner.

Today, I had a very busy FD clearing out my cellar & cupboards, then cycling to the main waste dump and to the clothes collection bank
I saved time during the day by having just had 2 small mugs of cocoa with a dash of cashew milk - plus drinking 1.5 l litre water - and I've just finished a delicious meal in an excellent restaurant:

Starter: big mixed salad (just veg) with vinaigrette
Main: salmon fillet with another big salad & vinaigrette
Drink: ¾ litre of still water

The bulk of all the salad leaves, plus all that water have made me comfortably full.

OP posts:
littleladylawyer · 20/04/2018 19:45

Wow congrats on your nsvs southeast, you should be so proud of yourself and I hope you have a fab weekend Smile

Well done homemade and maz on your fds. I'll def join you on the Monday fast maz but will se about b2b. I fasted on Easter Monday and it was fine, I felt like I needed it after the previous days so see how you go with the bank holiday.

Welcome apple, sounds like you've made a great start.

I'm about to have my first drink since Saturday, a lovely cold crisp glass of white 🍷 have a great Friday eve all!

applelolly · 20/04/2018 19:53

homemade well done. I had a nice glass of sparkling water in the garden this evening. Wasnt quite the same as a nice glass of prosecco/chilled white, but I tried to convince myself it was just as good!
big choc yes, i need to watch the nfds to ensure they are still healthy. I have been doing better since Jan , but there is still room for improvement. I am going to try shorter faster runs on fast days, or try to make that a day for something else (body attack class or shred maybe) and fit my longer runs in on other days...may take some juggling.

I am heading to bed soon! Early nights definitely are the way to go on fast days.

TalkinPeece · 20/04/2018 20:27

not a great week
full time work
no gym
booze every night
BUT
I know why and I know that its a blip not a trend

purpleviolet1 · 20/04/2018 21:07

I've not managed my 2nd FD of the week yet and I think I've overate today.

However I've noticed a pattern last two months - I always get cravings , bloated etc from day 21 of my cycle. I have roughly a 29 day cycle. So day 21 I gather must be just after ovulation?

In other news I'm going to the docs on Monday to get checked for muscle separation / diastatis recti and then I have a personal trainer lined up to write me programmes to do at home. Hopefully I'll be able to incorporate some exercise this way

purpleviolet1 · 20/04/2018 21:07

Going to try a FD tomorrow

WreckTangled · 20/04/2018 21:32

I haven't counted my calories today. I had a massive pack of hula hoops then used up all of today's allowance on French bread, Boursin and garibaldis also six chicken nuggets from McDonald's reckon I might still be under my TDEE though. I'm shattered as we've been at the beach all afternoon so off to bed in a sec.

MazDazzle · 20/04/2018 22:07

Well done southeast! Cracking non scale victories. No wonder you’re delighted.

BigChocFrenzy · 20/04/2018 22:50

That's an excellent action plan for your health & fitness, purple

Yup, you'll see off that blip, tip
Make a start this weekend and reduce what you have to lose ?

Another 28C day, as the weekend will be and I'm knackered
Night all

OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 21/04/2018 06:52

Morning all

Not the best night food wise, but blip over and I'm focused again. Busily clearing the garage today. DC have gone with ExH to meet their new baby sister.

TiP you'll see off your blip in no time

Welcome Apple!

Homemadehopeful · 21/04/2018 07:34

Went to bed quite early last night and have woken up feeling very optimistic that I can do this twice a week!! Think my TDEE is around 1600 so am planning on 2 × 500 cal days and 5 x 1500 cal days to give a weekly deficit of 3700 cals Grin

Need to be really good this week as I have a hen weekend next Sat / Sun which starts with a bottomless brunch!

Well done on those NSV southeast, you must be very chuffed!
BCF thanks for the marmite tip. Do you mean as a drink with hot water? I tried this and despite being in the 'Love It' camp I couldn't drink it. I might try with miso next time and see if that is any better.
I did think later that I should of got some sparkling water in, will do for the next one apple