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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 75: Need to get back on track after Easter eggs ? The Fasting Fairy just sprinkled motivation dust on this thread.

976 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 27/03/2018 14:14

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
14
peachypips · 27/03/2018 19:10

That was helpful BCF.

Kitchen closed here at 560. Day two tomorrow then I'm done!

purpleviolet1 · 27/03/2018 19:27

Massive thanks to BCF and TIP for the thread and all the advice Grin

So I seem to have somewhat fallen off the wagon. My FD didn't materialise yesterday and I failed today as well. We have quite a few events this week - all will be over by Tuesday next week. I'm wondering if I should take the week off and try and maintain as it were by no snacking, lots of water and eating under TDEE when I can. TOTM seems to have half heartedly appeared and the scales this morning said 9st 1.3 lbs. I missed a FD last week so my last FD was last Monday. I'm not too worried if I hover around this for now and then I can jump back on the train and get myself down to 8 stone. I will try to stick a FD in if I can but i will most definitely be fasting on Tuesday 3rd.

TalkinPeece · 27/03/2018 19:31

purple
In the long term, think of the yearly fasting plan .......
24 weeks a year = fast strictly
24 weeks a year = fast roughly
4 weeks a year = holidays
an aware non fasting week will do you no harm

purpleviolet1 · 27/03/2018 19:44

Thanks tip. I was feeling a bit deflated but then I remembered how far I have come. And I WILL jump back on and continue to goal.

littleladylawyer · 27/03/2018 20:09

Thanks for the new thread BigChoc and TIP.

purple don't be deflated, there are going to be times when life gets in the way or we just aren't up to it. Sensible eating within tdee sounds like an ideal plan until next week.

B2B done here, it wasn't too bad as I was in meetings most of the day so too busy to think about food. Don't think it will be something I do every week, but it's nice to have it out of the way. Out for meals Thursday, Friday and Sunday and I want to enjoy all the Easter treats (and wine) so I'm going to try to keep to 16:8 and no snacking- if I want an Easter egg it will have to be a meal!

BigChocFrenzy · 27/03/2018 20:13

purple
First, pat yourself on the back for all you have achieved
Next, write down now the day of your next FD after Easter - you can post it here too Wink
Then … have a break and return after Easter, going for goal

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 27/03/2018 20:14

Well done on a good b2b, lawyer
Easter egg makes a nice pud after a meal

OP posts:
quackingduck222 · 27/03/2018 20:27

Purple don’t be too disheartened. These things happen. Life can sometimes get in the way but you know what it doesn’t matter. You’ve done so well, a week isn’t going to undo that. As long as you come back that’s all that matters.

Littlelady well done on your B2B.

I’ve decided next week I’m going to up my TDEE I’m currently on sedentary 1400 cals and plan on doing more running sessions in a week so want to move upto lightly active 1600 cals. I don’t really want to be stuck on 1400 forever as it is really quite easy to go over that.

BigChocFrenzy · 27/03/2018 20:39

Definitely go up to your real TDEE, duck as you are maintaining weight, but still losing inches
I hadn't realised you were still aiming for sedentary cals - that explains it, you still have a substantial deficit.

In stages is best, say 1-2 weeks "lightly active"
then 2-3 weeks "moderately active" and see how you feel

OP posts:
NoUnderpantsinSpace · 27/03/2018 20:43

Hellllloooooo(öchen - for BCF if you get the lingo Wink ) thank you for the heads up re the new thread too!

I feel like fraud being her because I am still —sounding like a chain smoking emphysema patient— so rough. I think I need to call what I’m recovering from flu rather than a cold. A cold shouldn’t be making me stay so ill so long.... actually just googled flu symptoms. So yeah. It is/was flu!

Anyway, I am feeling really excited to get started and I’m going to keep hanging around to pick up lots of tips. The info here is amazing! Thank you all so much!

And thank you also for the lovely welcome!

BigChocFrenzy · 27/03/2018 20:43

Stay strong with the no-snacking granny, cheshire and all struggling to kick the habit
It makes a difference to all “hard losers”, especially shifting the last few stubborn lb
Also improves insulin sensitivity and hence reduces risk of T2.

Try to use this weight loss phase to develop a permanent "no-snacking" habit, so the cravings just don't appear when you walk by shops pushing sugary junk.
Otherwise the weight will keep coming back and undoing all your hard work - so frustrating for you.

Everyone: but especially once meno hits (or preT2), snacks go straight to the hips

"Bigger pickers need bigger knickers"

It certainly doesn't mean you can never enjoy sugary / carby crap - crisps, choc, cakes, biscuits, fancy lattes … - or alcohol;
Just not as often
and only as part of a meal
even "healthy" snacks, like fruit & veg, hinder fat-burning - so should be scheduled as part of a meal

Dr Jason Jung's graphs showing the difference in a 24-hour day between snacking - insulin dominant - and eating 3 meals with &no snacking - fasting & fat burning dominant:^

5:2 Thread No. 75:  Need to get back on track after Easter eggs ? The Fasting Fairy just sprinkled motivation dust on this thread.
5:2 Thread No. 75:  Need to get back on track after Easter eggs ? The Fasting Fairy just sprinkled motivation dust on this thread.
OP posts:
NoUnderpantsinSpace · 27/03/2018 20:44

—why didn’t my strikeout work?—

NoUnderpantsinSpace · 27/03/2018 20:44

Arse

TalkinPeece · 27/03/2018 20:50

Please remember everybody that weight loss was a side effect of 5:2
not the purpose.
The purpose of 5:2 was to reduce heart attack risk and increase the number of years of healthy life

that is why I'm still here, bumbling along a tad above my happy weight over four years since I stopped actively losing weight

BigChocFrenzy · 27/03/2018 20:52

Gute Besserung, underpants Smile
If you feel too rough to fast, that's fine - concentrate on TLC maintenance and support your immune system with the healthy habits I posted upthread

  • Also fine if you want to start fasting - maybe start gently with an 800 FD

FD Tips:

  • No snacking / grazing of course
  • Drink lots of water when fasting, especially with your "remnant flu"
  • Hot tea / herbal tea / coffee / Bovril are good too.
  • Glug a teasp Marmite from the jar, to replenish salt & minerals - will help avoid headaches or feeling weak
  • Concentrate on nutritious meals with plenty of veg and adequate protein
  • No junk, no booze, no fruit juice or breakfast cereal on FDs
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 27/03/2018 20:56

< applauds TIP > That's why we keep reminding you about healthy longterm habits
We see 5:2 as a healthy lifetime WOL, not just another stage in a yoyo weight game

OP posts:
quackingduck222 · 27/03/2018 21:00

I think I’ve been set one below as when i first started 5:2 I could of done with one below sedentary. I’ve only really increased very recently as I was doing the bare minimum Grin. I’ve been going over TDEE all last week and I’ve had a slight gain but clothes feel looser.

I’ve got the Jason Fung book, The obesity code. good read but started reading about set point theory and don’t want to be lumbered with 1400 forever. Getting onto the good bit about fasting now Wink

HLBug · 27/03/2018 21:01

I'm finally on the bus home for work and I'm ready to climb straight into bed as soon as I get home. B2B done. Baked potato with cheese for lunch (lunch canteen options were limited due to bad weather) and I've managed to get through to now with a milky coffee this afternoon but nothing else. Shattered.

Still thinking about a Mini towards the end of the week - will see what the scales say between now and then.

Well done to everyone else who has fasted today.

quackingduck222 · 27/03/2018 21:05

Well done Bug you’ve done fantastic!

TiP, it’s so true what your saying, I think it’s easy to forget just how incredible 5:2 really is with all its health benefits.

snailhunter · 27/03/2018 21:14

Well done Tuesday fasters and thank you BCF for lovely new thread.

I am planning some lovely Easter feasts which I will enjoy guilt free and as part of a meal! I'm going to bake a traditional Simnel cake and the kids are going to make Easter biscuits. And we are eschewing the traditional roast on Sunday for a lovely nut roast, because I feel like it: really not feeling the need for vast amounts of red meat at the moment. Once a week at the most.

Pumperthepumper · 27/03/2018 21:44

Thanks BCF for the message and the new thread! Fasting tomorrow then HOLIDAYS (although might have a bash at a fast next week to stay on track). Not expecting a great loss this week because of stupid TOTM approaching but plodding away.

purpleviolet1 · 27/03/2018 21:48

Thanks all I'll keep posting to keep me accountable ...

GrannyPenny · 27/03/2018 22:02

Eclectic dinner of broad beans, chicken, avocado, tomato and pickled gherkins. Kitchen closed at 480 cals and as I don't have midnight exercise class to book I can have an early night. Win win.

Night all.

BigChocFrenzy · 27/03/2018 23:38

Well done on nailing your b2b, bug

Enjoy the delic feasts, snail and after Easter come back to the fasts
One of the few "forbidden" things on 5:2 is guilt about food.

That's a good FD, granny

Well done fasters and g'night all

OP posts:
yogi47 · 28/03/2018 07:07

Yay found you all! What a relief! Thanks bcf. Morning... B2B completed Mon and Tues and 2nd day was actually easier than first so glad I now have that as an option! I'm done now until next Tuesday - although now have a very busy time which will involve food and drink! This is what is so amazing about this WOL - will enjoy but will try damage limitation. SV this morning - 1.2lb off, total 8.6lb in 7 weeks! Good luck to all fasting today....

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