5:2 Thread No. 75: Need to get back on track after Easter eggs ? The Fasting Fairy just sprinkled motivation dust on this thread.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

quacking I found that the gym session (which was heavy lifting) was great considering I had only eaten ~500 calories all day. I was concerned if it affects muscle gain especially as I didn’t eat afterwards though (I’ll have to look into that). I probably won’t do this again though because I just could not sleep all night. I wasn’t hungry per se. But quite anxious about not having eaten. Very strange.

It’s fine to fast during your period smiled, but some find they gain/stay the same due to water retention. However, this soon goes the following week.

oh snail that sounds super stressful, you need to give yourself a break and just have a healthy TDEE day - good luck...

Yes duck but i also tend to drink a lot on a FD evening because my DH is usually sitting on the sofa opposite scoffing choc, crisps, cheese and crackers - you name it so it distracts me... from killing him

well done on the fasted exercise gobble

FD here and only tea and water so far, going to have an egg salad for lunch and not sure yet about tea as its so lovely I can't think of anything I fancy cooking, so probably more salad I must keep busy and resist the urge to drink a or in this glorious sunshine i can have it tomorrow

Good luck thursday fasters

Hi all. Some great SVs and motivation around, well done. Great start, Rising . You have motivation because you know you can have it (or it’s equivalent) tomorrow. i Think, anyway!

Gobble there will be lots on information on fasted exercise on the 5:2 exercise thread.

I’m on my second FD of the week. I was away with work and knew Tuesday night was going to be boozy. It turned out to be a 10 hour drinking session- I collapsed into bed at 4 and then was up 4 hours later for a 3 hour meeting!!!!

Anyway, I was watching others. My gorgeous slim colleague who is male and about 6 foot declined a desert so I can learns lessons from him as his TDEE will be about twice mine. I only picked at mine.

However, the main damage was done the next day by mainlining sandwiches. 4! And an evening meal, so I’d put on 5lbs this morning. Would’ve been worse if I’d eaten all the train goodies on Tuesday.

I’m not worried or upset tho, I know it’ll come off quickly with an FD or 2.

NFD lunch eaten. I had a double decker BUT I didn't have breakfast and I resisted the free biscuits, it was planned so I assume that's ok...

tangled that is fine!

Still on 0 cals here... am planning on going straight through to dinner - which I've bought a pre done chicken and bacon caesar salad at 420 cals so nice and easy one here.

Glad you're enjoying it smiled, I weirdly look forward to my fasts now, particularly after a big weekend.

cheshire I'm not surprised you were mainlining sandwiches after a 10 hour drinking sesh, when I'm hungover my stomach is like a bottomless pit.

Sorry you're having a stressful time snail, look after yourself.

Nfd here and just had a big salad for lunch. Going to have chicken skewers salad and a super grain pouch thing for dinner, it's so much easier to eat light healthy meals when it's sunny.

Good luck to the Thursday fasters- we will all deserve an ice cream at the weekend!

When I'm hung over I always need a pot noodle

I always want a fillet o fish when I'm hungover

Whoops, I’ve derailed the thread into junk food territory. Sorry all.

But that does show how bad alcohol is for us:

• the calories in the alcohol
• the loss of self-control meaning we going eat bad things whilst under the influence
• and the need to eat stodge the next day.

Enjoying today’s FD. For lunch I’ve got into the habit of some Ainsley Hariot spiced couscous and a large raw carrot.

Yum!

Well, unlikely as it sounds after my booze indulgence yesterday evening I've actually ended up doing a fast all day today! Have been busy at work and necking the water though so I think that's helped. Am just going to carry on until dinner - probably will still end up only being a mini FD as planned dinner is quite calorific but I'm quite proud of myself for not falling face-first into a pile of carbs today 😁

Hi all

Hope all FDs going well? I haven't managed mine properly - DS, having slept like an dream for 10.5 years was up most of the night last night, and I'm shattered. WIll finish the day on 722cals rather than 500cals, but couldn't do less as I'm just starving.

Hopefully it won't derail the week/weigh in tomorrow as I've still finished 3,369cals under TDEE for the week, but fingers crossed!

anyone else just want the biggest G&T in the land in this sunshine??

Well, that was definitely the right decision to have an NFD. I have been working in a calm and methodical manner and am no longer feeling stressed. Also I tried on last year's shorts - size 12 - and they are HUGE. So huge! So a nice SV for me there.

Well done on your SV, smiled and an excellent 1st week
You side-stepped cake on FD2 like a champ.

Yogi Soon be a Tights Fell Down in the Office NSV if you don't buy some smaller ones

Wreck It's 28C here, humid and forecast to stay that way until a late night Sunday monsoon.

Maz Before you leave for holiday, stick a post-it on the frig with the date of your 1st planned post-hols FD

• you could post it here too, as added motivation.

What would help you avoid getting stuck in holiday mode for the next few months:
keep some healthy 5:2 habits on holiday, especially
NO snacking and Keep to NHS alcohol limits

Fasted training is used by many pro lifters to boost muscle growth, gobble
They eat afterwards

Varady 's human trials on ADF (Alternate Day Fasting) - hence more severe restriction than 5:2 - found 1% lean mass loss for sedentary subjects, but none at all for exercisers - many gained muscle

So long as you are eating around the 500 cals on your FDs, including plenty of protein, you'll be fine with lifting.

However, on FDs, it's best to avoid long steady state cardio exercise, like long runs or swims, because you may hit the wall

• that type of exercise preferentially uses glycogen for fuel, but FDs deplete glycogen stores in order to burn more fat and you may not be able to access enough bodyfat

In contrast, Lifting - and HIIT - preferentially use bodyfat as fuel, as they are able to access it pretty well.

I've been maintaining for about 4 years now and I often train fasted, including heavy lifting - on the leg press & calf raise machine, I go up to 149 kg / 328 lb, 80 kg for upper body

e.g. yesterday I was busy, so ate nothing all day, then did a 90 mins advanced lifting class, followed by a 20 min walk to the riverside restaurant and a 20 minute walk back.
Bags of power, no problem

You may need time to adapt to fasted training, but that is just your body getting used to accessing bodyfat for energy.

cheshire Adding to your reasons for being moderate with alcohol:

• Alcohol stops all fat-burning until the liver has processed the toxic byproducts
• Alcohol calories are preferentially stored around your middle

Congrats on your shorts NSV, snail
That shows what you have achieved - week to week the change may not be noticeable, but it adds up to a major difference over the months.

NoWay On really tough days, you can allow up to 800 cals for an FD
Done occasionally, it won't matter.

If you have a high TDEE, 2400+, then you can do 800 cal FDs as routine, instead of 500

Hi all, I am planning my first FD tomorrow and trying to decide now what to eat. Thinking an egg salad for lunch and a Bol / Innocent veggie pot for dinner but not exactly sure how many calories that will come to.
Have wondered whether a Friday is the best day to start but feel like I am getting a teeny bit out of control atm so don't want to wait until Monday. I am a 'healthy'weight according to BMI but at the very top end and I just don't feel healthy right now.

Planning on taking measurements later (have parents evening first!!) and weighing myself in the morning.

I'm going to take a look at the recipe threads as will be in need of some inspiration!!

No way I could kill for a

Wow bigchoc sounds very hard core training on a FD!
This weather is really helpful- too hot to eat although I may well have s cheeky glass of wine later

Welcome, homemade and good luck on your 1st FD
It's good to just make a start and get on with it, instead of waiting for a particular day.
Friday FDs can also help reduce possible weekend sabotage of progress.

I recommend you take measurements in the morning when you weigh - it helps keep the conditions repeatable, which is important if you want to monitor progress like this.

(It's also fine to go by clothes fit, for those who get stressed / discouraged by scales)

So, for you - weigh & measure naked, 1st thing in the morning,
after loo but before you have eaten or drunk anything

For weighing, keep scales in exactly the same place, on a level, hard surface - not carpet
For digital scales, allow 2-3 seconds after switching on for it to zero itself, then step on- no jumping or leaning to the side

My username may hint where my problem lay

Alcohol has never been that interesting for me - maybe because in the bad old 1950s-1960s I was given a tiny glass of sherry or sloe gin after every Sunday lunch from the age of 4 !
I think I associate wine with a harsh taste.

I average 1 small glass per month
and last weekend I poured 7 bottles of wine & champagne down the sink - I was given them at various times over the last 10 years or so and I just got fed up carting them each house move.

No FD for me today so aiming to do it tomorrow instead

Lovely weather

Oh yes noway I'd love a or right now, dh has just poured himself an ice cold cider

Kitchen closed at 504, looking forward to a glass of something tomorrow. bigchoc I could happily avoid chocolate, doesn't really interest me, but wine and cheese is my weak spot

Evening all,

Kitchen closed and feeling good. Feel like it was a good positive FD. Fingers crossed for weigh in tomorrow!

ExH and his new wife (ExFriend) are about to have their baby (as in, in hospital) so we shall see what my emotions are doing tomorrow but at the moment I'm fine and not bothered at all.
DC are off to his for the weekend (assuming the baby turns up and they aren't still in hospital), I have a busy one planned clearing out the garage... might allow myself a cold glass of something in a beer garden if I think I've earned it! If not, It will be a celebratory lime and soda

Did someone mention cheese? It is a major weakness of mine, at Christmas I work my way through a homemade board to myself (over the whole period to be fair).... amazing stuff, cheese.

Good luck to anyone weighing in in the morning!