5:2 Thread No. 75: Need to get back on track after Easter eggs ? The Fasting Fairy just sprinkled motivation dust on this thread.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Well done on nailing your FDs, MrD, slinky

3lb down this morning! That is 13lb total and 5% bodyweight loss I think (or something like that anyway!)

I'll take that as a bloody good first month back on the wagon! And for anyone feeling disheartened remember i have a very high starting bmi and lots to lose!

Fab resistance noway

Congrats on nailing FD slinky!

Well done NoWay and Slinky on the great FD’s and brilliant loss MrDarcy you are smashing it!
One pound down for me this morning as I remembered to get on the scales - very pleased! Now to keep a sense of focus and proportion this weekend as going away with lots of visiting and catching up with friends and family to do!

Well done on your SV, Fanny

Brilliant start back, MrD and the 5% loss in bodyweight is important for you.
This reminds you again that 5:2 really works well for you

iirc, last time we calculated your loss in elephant penises - that's nearly a quarter of one already
so big goal is to lose a whole one !

Well done to everyone who had successful FDs yesterday, and for the fab SVs MrD and Fanny.

I feel incredibly tired this morning, more so than yesterday. Is this normal after a B2B? Be interesting to see how I get on at my exercise class. 15 mins to get another cup of coffee down me and out of the house.

Well done Mr Darcy for losing a quarter of an elephant's penis. Not a sentence I have imagined typing. and definitely not off to google how much an elephant's penis weighs. much

I have just heard on BBC News that Under Armour / My Fitness Pal have had a hacking attack where some passwords have been stolen. Just putting this here so that people can change the passwords if they think they might be affected.

2lbs GAIN for me this morning!! . Not TOTM or any other reason.

That takes me to heavier than I was 4 weeks ago, and means the pattern since then has been two weeks staying the same, one week small loss, one week big gain.

I'm so disheartened I could cry. This has been happening every time I've tried to lose weight in the last 3 years. I've so much to lose, but every time I give a weight loss plan a good go, all I manage to do is stem the weight gain for a short period.

Absolutely gutted.

Just plugged it in to MFP and it's actually more like 2.5lbs

parsn1ps 5:2 expands your horizons

granny fasting is a loading on the body, quite similar to HIIT
FDs can make people feel tired until they get used to them, as for exercise
A b2b increases the effect, since you started FD2 already fasted

So, after your b2b, you may find at your class that your energy tank feels empty
After a few more b2bs, your body will probably adapt

Today: depends obviously on the intensity of the class
also on the type of exercise - I recommend avoiding long steady state cardio sessions, e.g. runs of more than 40 mins - something like a spin or pump class would be easier

That's tough for you, noway
If you've a lot to lose, then most people lose pretty quickly.

Although some folk lose inches before the scales catch up, there should still be a clear downward trend if you have a few stone to go before healthy BMI - is that kind of weight what you mean, by "so much to lose" ?

If so and you are losing neither lb nor inches, then 2 main causes:

1. Medical, either a condition like thyroid, or prescribed meds. Only your doctor can help there,

2. The most usual: not having a weekly calorie deficit - and the only cause we can help with here

Most folk can lose on 5:2 without counting on TDEE
but for some their "normal" eating is way above TDEE - usually caused by calorie bombs like "treats" & snacks and / or alcohol -
so they are eating back the FD deficit, or even more

Don't worry, this is fixable, but does take more effort

Have you calculated your TDEE (at sedentary unless you are a regular gym-goer or runner etc) ?
If so, have you mfped everything eaten & drunk last week, to check you have a deficit ?

Most folk can lose on 5:2 without counting on NFDs
(although some like the reassurance of mfp)

Hi everyone, I'm back. Sickness and injury kept me off 5:2 for most of the winter, but I had a successful FD yesterday and feel like I'm ready to get back on the wagon properly. My weight crept up a touch, I'm at 13st7 now (made it down to 13st4 in early December), but that's not too bad and I feel like it will come off again easily.

I saw this article in Nature today that references the latest research on calorie restriction and potentially increased healthy lifespan. I hope the link works!

BMI currently just over into obese (30.1) - have 2-2.5 stone to lose to be comfortably within healthy BMI (although this would still be top end).

Think I will monitor NFDs more closely for next couple weeks and see what that looks like. Worked out TDEE when I first joined the thread and have forgotten it so will do again. Think it's around the 1500cal mark.

Thanks bcf - good to have some ideas and things to try. I've thought for ages that it's medical as have gained 20kg (a third of my initial body weight) in 3 years whilst I've been trying to lose. However, docs have run bloods and, whilst thyroid function on edge of normal range, it's still normal so they won't do anything.

Well done Mr Darcy for losing a quarter of an elephant's penis. Not a sentence I have imagined typing.and definitely not off to google how much an elephant's penis weighs. Buttered that had me rolling with laughter.

I am so over the moon. Jumped on the scales this am and I have had mother of all whooshes. I have been hobbling around the 58.4 kg mark for the last month and had hit a plateau. This morning I came in at 57.9. That's 0.5 kg drop in 2 days. And have broken the next mini milestone I had set myself. This is just the good news I needed after a really rubbish few weeks. I have been recording my weight on MFP since 2011 and have never been 57 anything and can't remember the last time I was this - maybe in my late 20s.

Yep, I just changed my MFP password, thanks for the heads up buttered.

Well done to all the losers and FDers! Very pleased for you especially slinky. And I will certainly not be googling elephant's penis :)

NoWay, how disheartening for you. Weight loss has not been linear for me either - I have had lots of STS, gaining and whatnot since I started three months ago. Today is a good example. For the last three weeks I've been hovering around 10st 1lb and today, FINALLY, I have had a whoosh and am down to 9st 12lb.

As BCF says, it really is worth monitoring your NFDs. I think the biggest public misconception about this WOE is that you can 'eat what you like' on NFDs rather than eating to TDEE. If only that were the case...

Now I've reached my second mini goal weight of 10st: the first was 10st 5lb to put me in the healthy BMI range. Onwards to final goal of 9st 6lb. But first, Easter.

Well done on the whoosh slinky! Fab sv fanny too

No way, that sounds tough. Do listen to BCF she's helped me when struggling many a time in the past!

BCF ahhh the elephants penis! You are brining back memories now! I think I just about lost a whole one last time!

Well done slinky that's a great whoosh!!

Well done slinky and MrD, getting rid of those elephant penises!

Sorry you've not had a loss noway. Hopefully some small nfd adjustments will see you right, it is frustrating though when you feel you've tried really hard.

Dinner out was Turkish food last night, and although I ate a bigger meal than I would have liked I really enjoyed it. When we got home DP had popcorn, ice cream and choc but I was full from dinner so didn't want any- this is a victory for me as often eating junk food has nothing to do with actual hunger! I also walked 12km yesterday.

I have lunch out today but not that hungry so going to have something light and see how it goes. Hope everyone has a lovely Friday!

Darcy - wow what a fantastic month. Very well done.

Parsnips thanks for the heads up on MFP. I’m baffled to why anyone would want to hack it. All there gonna find out is what people had for there tea.

Noway that’s really disappointing to hear. Did you take measurements beforehand? I really do echo BCF that if your not going way over TDEE you must be loosing inches. Do you use MFP? I’d recommend it on NFDs for a bit just incase there is a calorie bomb in there somewhere. It’s very easily done.

Well done on your B2B Granny. Hope your class goes alright today.

Welcome back Mship. Glad you smashed your FD yesterday. And that very small gain will come off very quickly.

Congratulations Slinky on your loss but also your all time low. That’s very impressive.

Snail fantastic on your mini goal. I definitely agree with your post. The amount of people who had said I don’t understand that diet how can you eat what you want for 5 days and starve for 2 and loose weight. Was it ever publicly advertised as such or is it a huge misconception?

Nothing to report here but just catching up with everyone's news after a busy few days!! Amazing SVs and NSVs and great advice. I learn something every time I look. Feel next week will be trying to get back on track after a full week/weekend of social and family events. Happy Easter everyone and thank you

You're all so lovely with your support, thank you so much. Agree, need to be cleverer on NFDS and watch things slightly closer for the moment to check out what's happening.

Well done on all SVs and NSVs everyone!

Thanks quacking, it's good to be back! I feel really positive today.

Hi, hope it's ok to join in? I have been toying with 5:2 for ages as I have a couple of colleagues who do amazingly well on it - both older than me and look far healthier and slimmer than I do!

I have been low-carbing on and off for years and am quite wedded to the science behind it, but I do find the Bootcamp-style WOE quite restrictive and inflexible, so am looking for something that will be in keeping with what I understand about nutrition etc whilst also not being quite so unforgiving of slip-ups! I am bored of worrying about eating the odd carrot or apple, or not having a lovely bean stew in the winter.

Having said that, I have never, ever in my life counted a calorie so I'm not quite sure how I'll get on with this!

So this my plan: I'm 5' 7" and 12st 2lb this morning, which gives me a BMI of 26.6, heaviest I've ever been
My TDEE comes out at 1738 calories, so I am aiming for around 1500 on an ordinary NFD, is that right? I'm pretty inactive...

Luckily I am fairly used to intermittent fasting anyway as I rarely eat breakfast and usually end up with an 'eating window' of about 7-8 hours from around 1pm. So I'm hoping that fast days won't be too much of a strain. I just need to stop snacking and curb my addiction to sweet, nutrition-free crap.

I've started with an 'easing-in' FD today - have had a cup of tea with almond milk first thing and now a cup of Bovril. I'll probably have another Bovril mid-afternoon. Dinner is planned as a small steak cooked in olive oil, with some roasted broccoli and sprouts. I reckon that will come in around 500, maybe a smidge more if I put some butter on my sprouts!

Does that sound ok or have I missed something obvious?

Hi fennel and welcome. 5:2 sounds like it’s right up your street.

Boot camp style low carbing is very hard also not very flexible. Unlike 5:2 it’s very flexible it’s easy to fit in around your lifestyle.

If your not a breakfast eater anyway this will be a great way of life for you. Lots of us combine 5:2 with 16:8 that your already doing.

You plan for today sounds perfect. Some people like to split there cals between lunch and tea others save up the calories for a bigger tea. It’s whatever works for you and around your lifestyle.

Good luck for today

Hey, fennel, welcome! Yes, I know people who have had success on low carb - my mum swears by it - but it's just not for me. I like to eat many, many different things. Your first FD sounds fine to me - as our guru BCF advises above, an 'easing-in' day is a great idea.

quacking I don't know where the misconception came from, but blimey, it is widespread. I suspect very simplistic reporting is the culprit. Check out the first couple of lines from this BBC description! - www.bbcgoodfood.com/howto/guide/what-52-diet. "Eat what you want five days a week, eat next to nothing for two. The part-time diet that still allows you to eat chocolate cake yet lose weight has hit the headlines and taken off in a big way."