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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 74: If you only enjoy long walks when they’re taken by people who annoy you, don‘t worry: Fasting is a far more efficient way to burn fat

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2018 22:49

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
FannyDaggers · 09/03/2018 07:16

Checking in for my 2nd fast day today. Well done MrDarcy and fortythree on the great losses!

Iateallthebread · 09/03/2018 07:26

Great results mrdarcy and fortythree. So sorry to hear about your cottage maz, I hope your insurance covers you.
Thanks for the good wishes everyone, it’s just been a cold but I don’t get them often so I’ve been feeling sorry for myself. I haven’t had much of an appetite so hopefully the scales will be kind. Starting to feel human again so planning to have a FD on Monday or Tuesday next week.
Good luck to those weighing in and fasting today.

purpleviolet1 · 09/03/2018 07:54

Great results mr darcy and forty three.. I've weighed in and down to 9st 1.9lbs Grin lost just over half a pound this week. Onwards and downwards!

quackingduck222 · 09/03/2018 07:56

Just turfing I’m the same as you since I got kitchen scales I’ve been tracking on MFP some days I don’t at all as I think you get a real good grasp of calories but I sometimes double check. I do make sure I still use my scales to weigh food out tho as I can get greedy and take to much.

Darcy OMG 6lbs, 6lbs that’s bloody awesome.

43 that’s fantastic, over the weeks it really does mount up doesn’t it.

BigChocFrenzy · 09/03/2018 08:39

Excellent start, MrD and 43
Well done on your SVs

43 No need for DC to snack either - this is a social change pushed by Big Food for big profits
No snacks in my childhood, in the late 1950s - early 70s, or for the generations before, because food & snacks hadn't then been industrialised

Even if DC are healthy weight, it creates habits for adulthood which can be hard to break
Best for them to have say 4 good meals per day, with fruit as a dessert, not as a separate snack

Who needs snacks ?
Those who need to GAIN weight, especially very underweight or ill DC
Anyone whose stomach can only handle small amounts of food

OP posts:
peachypips · 09/03/2018 08:56

Well done people that have lost weight! I've lost another pound this week so am now 11.9. Woo hoo!

I normally give up with everything when I get to 11.4 so we shall see. I really want to get down to 10 by mid July.

OohMrDarcy · 09/03/2018 08:59

Thanks all - quacking... it does sound awesome doesn't it - but I do have a LOT to lose... in the region of 7 stone really. So expected a big loss first week.

BCF / 43 ..... I do give my DD snacks, but she is 11, early pubescent and the school lunches are simply not big enough for her anymore- so no snacks on a packed lunch day, and generally only the one on a school dinner day... that ok do you think? Only got one term left before secondary.

yogi47 · 09/03/2018 09:04

Thanks pumper and everyone else. I will put this weeks weigh-in as down to impending TOTM and look forward to a whoosh once it's over. And I will focus on the overall loss over the last 4 weeks. Have already planned ahead next week to allow for birthday celebrations. I have 3 weeks now of my birthday, DS1 and DS2 but I've got this (with the help of MumsNet)! Fab to see so many positive weigh ins and good luck Friday fasters.

OohMrDarcy · 09/03/2018 09:06

Forgot to say (but was thinking it) congrats for all the other SVs! 43, Peachy!

quackingduck222 · 09/03/2018 09:16

Well done peachy

Yogi, TOTM really messes things up so I think that’s very wise. Also that’s absolutely fantastic you’ve planned ahead.

Darcy - just take it step by step, your here your doing it and that in its self is huge achievement.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 09/03/2018 11:06

thanks BCF that's what I've been thinking, that he doesn't need snacks, it doesn't help though that school ask you to bring 'healthy' snacks in for them also, so they are learning it there too! I'll see how I get on at home I suppose.

Well done peachy and the others that I can remember the names of Blush

I haven't eaten since FD yesterday (7pmish) as not hungry yet, (although I've had a skinny latte so technically I've had calories) is that okay to do? I guess it means I have more calories for later so could have a couple of cheeky drinks with dinner Wine Gin but is that okay?

OohMrDarcy · 09/03/2018 11:15

43, I say follow your appetite (though I may be wrong)

As a result of 5:2 in the last week I've started eating my dinner earlier (nomally don't think about it until DC in bed, now often eating with them)... as a result I'm a little more ready for food in the morning, so I'm balancing out better (previously never really ate breakfast). If I'm not hungry, I don't eat - I think its important to start listening to your body and stomach personally. You learn the right signals for eating then (hopefully!) rather than the stress / emotional / boredom ones... if you are anything like me anyway!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 09/03/2018 11:33

thanks mrdarcy sounds sensible doesn't it to listen to my body...
TBH I'm not a huge breakfast person anyway and would happily skip it so maybe that's how this will go for me.

Its odd though, because as you say I usually eat for those reasons you've listed above and never really listened to my body, so it will take time to understand all of this Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 09/03/2018 12:13

43 On NFDs, relax and enjoy your meals, but try to boost veg and make some healthier choices,
not too much junk, especially try to cut down on sugary crap like cake & biscuits, also fizz including diet fizz.

Keep to the "no snacking" rule and NHS alcohol guidelines ´ for heath as much as for weight -
so one glass of wine on most NFDs is fine

OP posts:
TalkinPeace · 09/03/2018 13:25

Snacking for children
did not exist until the late 1970's
it was certainly not a thing when I was at school

Solid breakfast - that inner ReadyBrek glow for those of us of a certain age
Milk at morning break (until Thatcher the milk snatcher took it away, but now its back)
Solid lunch (and if doing packed lunches, minimum sugar, max out fat and protein : cheese is GOOD)
Cup of squash and a biscuit when in the door from school
then NOTHING till supper at around 6:30 / 7pm
and NOTHING AT ALL EVER EVER after supper

If you stop your kids snacking, they will eat better at meals.
If you let them snack you run the risk of buggering up their insulin system for life.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 09/03/2018 14:59

thanks TIP luckily he's a good eater and always has been takes after his mum and he has healthy meals mostly cooked from scratch, but he is always looking for stuff in-between. He's as thin as a rake and growing upwards at a rate of knots, his dad is 6'4 and I think he's going to be the same - so I try and steer him to healthier snacks but wonder if I can stop it at all. Guess there's no way to know unless I try, wish me luck, i'll start monday!! Smile

permanentlyfrazzled1 · 09/03/2018 15:37

Hello! Just checking in, late, for my 6th FD. Bowl of cinammon porridge for breki at 11am, bowl of '3 green veg' soup for lunch, which I've just finished, with mushroom and bacon omelette with salad for tea later on. This 5:2 approach has made me realise how much I eat that I don't need, even the healthy stuff, and how conditioned I am to eating at certain times of the day, rather than waiting till I actually feel hungry. Week 1 I lost 3 lbs, last week only 1 lb, but it was TOTM, so eagerly looking forward to weigh in tomorrow. Hope it's going well for everyone fasting today!

BigChocFrenzy · 09/03/2018 17:29

43 I suggest you try increasing the size of his meals - portion size - so he gets the same amount of food, just only at mealtimes and less of the snack-type stuff.

frazzled Totm slows or stops loss for every menstruating woman, because the changed hormones cause water retention
This water should be released on the FD after totm finishes, so you can see the results on the scales the next day - if you avoided the totm munchies

OP posts:
snailhunter · 09/03/2018 17:42

Such amazing losses! Well done to all that I can remember - mrdarcy and forty and anyone I've missed! Not expecting loss on weigh-in tomorrow as have only done one FD this week thanks to being ill but have eaten sensibly and under TDEE for the rest of the week. Maz, so sorry about your flooding! What an awful thing to happen, so dispiriting.

slinkyme · 09/03/2018 18:25

Will catch up properly on thread but can already see that many SVs here. Well done purple that gets you to 58kg. Next loss will take you under. Well done Mr Darcy. You're off to a great start. Well done everybody - sorry only quickly skimmed the thread

Have only managed 1 FD and one mini FD this week. But weigh in today at least showed that I haven't put on any more weight. Who knows I may go even under last low weight once I restart FD next week. Guests with us till Tuesday morning so realistically won't be able to do a FD till then.

Good thing is it's ok I have given myself this half of the week off and will get back to routine when I can. Not giving up.

littleladylawyer · 09/03/2018 18:49

Congratulations to everybody with svs and nsvs, and happy Friday.

I've had a good couple of nfds and looking forward to my Friday glass of fizz tonight. Feeling much more positive after bad Tuesday, I don't think it's affected my weight so looking forward to a healthy but satisfying weekend! Including a pie as it's national pie week Wink

peachypips · 09/03/2018 19:00

Have a great weekend everyone- going awol as usual until Monday.

Park run tomorrow which is the highlight of my week!

Happy Friday friends!

quackingduck222 · 09/03/2018 19:16

Well done everyone, you’ve all had a blinding week!

Frazzled - do keep us updated on your weigh in tomorrow.

Peachy - good luck for your park run, is this a regular thing for you?

Feeling quite stuffed tonight homemade turkey burgers for tea and managed to squeeze in a little treat all within TDEE. Although I wish I didn’t bother with the carrot chips Aunt Bessie you can bloody well keep them absolutely horrible. Iceland fries you may be double the calories but they are oh so yummy.

Re kids and snacking - I will be honest and say I let mine crack on. Only because just a few months ago she was picked on for being “fat” she was only on the 3rd percentile line at the time and she is tiny. She pretty much stopped eating and went underweight. Had many tearful nights but she’s back to where she was now despite having a growth spurt.

macnab · 09/03/2018 19:51

Just checking in to keep myself on track. I usually treat myself on a Friday and end up completely overdoing it, tonight however I'm managing to avoid all rubbish quite easily. This week has been a revelation! I actually can do just fine on a lot less food than what I had been eating. And if I stop myself having a snack of any sort, the longing wears off whereas if I have "just a bit" I end up eating the lot. I've avoided all crap since Monday and coped ok with my first 2 FDs Smile
It's great to read other people's experiences of the same thing.
Next FD for me is Monday, I wouldn't say I'm looking forward to it but I'm certainly not dreading it! Keep up the good work everyone

MazDazzle · 09/03/2018 21:24

WOW! So many of you have had SVs. Well done! Grin

Successful FD here (no scones or malteasers and plenty of veg Wink) at just under 500 cals.

Thanks TiP, knowing that your parents were successful in their claim gives me some hope! I’ll let rip tomorrow.