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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 74: If you only enjoy long walks when they’re taken by people who annoy you, don‘t worry: Fasting is a far more efficient way to burn fat

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2018 22:49

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
BigChocFrenzy · 09/03/2018 21:27

Well done on your snacking NSV, Macnab
Many 5:2 ers have this lightbulb moment once they cut the snacks

OP posts:
FannyDaggers · 09/03/2018 21:59

Successful FD here too and also off to parkrun in the morning. Hope everyone has a lovely evening, I’m off to bed to ensure I don’t open the fridge! Grin

permanentlyfrazzled1 · 09/03/2018 22:32

Thanks BigChoc! How on earth are you so knowledgeable about all this? I managed to avoid the TOTM munchies, but I didn't get chance to do much exercise last week, so that obviously went against me as well. Will report tomorrow after I've mustered the courage to stand on the scales.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 10/03/2018 07:12

Good luck on the scales frazzled

FannyDaggers · 10/03/2018 07:41

Do most people weigh in the day after their 2nd fast? If so I'm down 4lb this morning!

purpleviolet1 · 10/03/2018 08:20

Daggers that's amazing! Yes BCF recommends weighing then. Some do weigh daily if they prefer but it's important to not get caught up on the fluctuations.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/03/2018 08:37

Well done on your SV, daggers Excellent start

The morning after FD2 is a good time to monitor weight,
Also, to smooth out blips (e.g. totm or a plateau) look at the trend over weeks, once you have been 5:2 ing a while.
It's fine if you prefer to weigh daily, but only really pay attention to the weekly values

Also monitor waist at least every few weeks.

frazzled I'm a STEM PhD, not in biology, but I'm experienced in analysing scientific research.
I'm very interesting in fasting for health, so I've examined a lot of the published science;
also, I note from all our 5:2 threads what issues arise and what strategies help make fasting more effective.

Every thread adds to our knowledge; everyone who posts contributes their bit of experience to the rest of us Smile

OP posts:
quackingduck222 · 10/03/2018 09:19

Daggers wow that’s fantastic! Well done

BCF you blow my mind with your knowledge. How long have you been 5:2ing now?

BigChocFrenzy · 10/03/2018 09:28

TIP & her DH have 5:2ed ever since the Horizon program, duck so she has the most practical experience.
I started late 2013 - I'm the resident geek Wink

OP posts:
snailhunter · 10/03/2018 09:29

Stayed the same this morning at 10st 3lb, but as I only managed one FD last week due to illness and no exercise due to various stresses, AND TOTM started unexpectedly this morning, I'll take that!

Some fabulous losses here for everyone - well done! Does anyone have any specific events/clothes/whatever they are using as a goal? I have a beach wedding in Greece to go to at the end of July and as I love dressmaking, I am planning to make a beautiful floaty maxi dress for it. And I want to look fabulous in it! If anyone else has anything, I'd love to hear them.

Pumperthepumper · 10/03/2018 09:38

Everyone’s had such a brilliant SV week! Excellent stuff!

Sorry about your house Maz, what a horrible thing to happen. Hope you get it all sorted out soon Flowers

MightyMunki · 10/03/2018 09:59

Hit my 5kg weight loss target this morning, really pleased as I’ve have good weeks and bad since starting in Jan. Another 5kg to go hopefully to get to a nice healthy BMI.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/03/2018 10:13

Well done on your SV and milestone, Mighty

sts is good on totm, snail
You should see the scales move afterwards; just stay focused, away from the munchie tin.

OP posts:
Pumperthepumper · 10/03/2018 10:47

Snail me! I’ve got three weddings, a party, a holiday and a night out between now and July. I want to wear something tight with no sleeves, I’m aiming high!

LarkDescending · 10/03/2018 10:57

Morning all

I am new to the thread - was on earlier 5:2 threads a couple of years ago, found it very doable and lost weight, albeit moderately rather than dramatically. Probably too much wine on NFD!

Things then changed due to serious ill health which, ironically, involved dramatic effortless weight loss and loss of appetite. I am now recovering from my second (final) round of major bowel surgery and looking ahead to future health now that my appetite is returning with a vengeance. I’d like to get back to 5:2 as and when it’s appropriate. I am normally a keen tennis player but am very limited re exercise for the time being as I have extensive abdominal wounds and painful hypertrophic scarring - this will improve but will take some months.

Any views/experience/wisdom on getting back to IF after big surgery? I see from his FAQ that MM recommends waiting 6-8 weeks after major surgery, and I should probably be on the cautious end of that given that now, after 4.5 weeks, I still have an unhealed surgical wound. So patience is called for - but I would like to have a plan in place so as not to pile on the pounds in my enforced idleness Smile

littleladylawyer · 10/03/2018 11:33

Woo well done daggers and munki, great svs.

Hi lark I'm afraid I don't have any advice regarding the surgery, but it sounds like you have had a really tough time of it so it's very impressive that you are looking to get plans in place now- hopefully someone far more knowledgeable can help with the specifics!

Well done on sts snail. I have a wedding in April and a hen do in Marbella in June, so I'd like to be able to wear a bikini confidently. Love the sound of making your own floaty dress- unfortunately I'm much better at shopping for clothes rather than making them!

BigChocFrenzy · 10/03/2018 11:35

So sorry to hear of your illness and ops, lark Thanks

My advice:

  • Definitely wait at least 8 weeks before fasting, or until your wounds have fully healed and you feel fully well again, whichever time is longer Don't attempt 16:8 or 14:10 either, because that would also stress your body.

Think of all kinds of fasting as like HIIT - great to make basically healthy people fitter, but not for those who are weak from illness (unless medically advised to fast)

  • In the meantime, move to the healthier habits that are prep for 5:2
    . Cut out snacks and move to 4 meals daily, if you can - have alcohol or even fruit only as part of a meal
    . Drink lots of water
    . Get plenty of sleep regularly
    . Exercise - Build up to a daily 15 minute walk
    . Cut down fizzy drinks, even diet ones (ideally cut out totally)
    . Keep within NHS alcohol limits always and have at least 2 days weekly totally free
    . Cut down on sugary treats - cakes, biscuits etc - and cut them out totally on 2 alcohol-free days
    . Also cut down on savoury junky carbs: deep-fried foods, crisps, pizza, pies, twiglets
    . Plan your final meal to start no later than 7:30 or 8pm - this reduces risks of high BP and CVD

  • When you are ready to fast, start gradually and gently:
    . 1st week, just a mini-FD (sub-1000 cals)
    . Next or a later week, have 2 mini-FDs (non-consecutive)
    . Gradually move down to 800 cal FDs and stay there for at least a few weeks. You could remain on 800 FDs.
    . Exercise - build up very gently too: say add "walking intervals" of 2 mins brisk pace & 2 mins normal pace
    Add swimming too, if you can
    Also resistance & flexibility exercise - maybe pilates

OP posts:
purpleviolet1 · 10/03/2018 12:07

Snail we have an event over Easter weekend and my goal is to be under 9 stone by then. I was 9st1.2 lbs yesterday (morning after 2nd FD) so here's hoping...

purpleviolet1 · 10/03/2018 12:13

Welcome lark you have been through an awful lot. I also had major surgery in 2011 and the recovery took longer than I anticipated so do give yourself lots of time. I ended up getting back to work etc too quickly and over doing it and it definitely prolonged my recovery. Keep an eye on the scar... mine turned keloid. Have you got steroid cream to apply ? I didn't see the plastic surgeon until it was too late but they can prescribe something called mepiform which is like a strip. It keeps the area hydrated and is meant to reduce the hypertrophic aspect. I had a c section last year and I've had steroid injections as soon as it started showing signs of being hypertrophic. Sorry to go off track! All the best

LarkDescending · 10/03/2018 12:20

Thanks so much to littleladylawyer for the kind words and to BCF for such a considered and thoughtful response Flowers

I agree (among other things) that cutting out snacks and moving back to a “mealtime” structure is going to be key. All the official advice while I have been ill and struggling to get adequate nutrition has been about “little & often & high-energy”, involving peanut butter on low-fibre toast, high-calorie medical milkshakes, bananas (for potassium), compulsory crisps (for starch and salt content, to maintain electrolyte balance) and lots of full fat dairy including ice cream.

Obviously this does not easily translate back to normal non-invalid life! Fortunately I have never had a taste for fizzy drinks or anything deep-fried, so for now I shall aim to stick to high-quality real food at regular times, avoid the vast quantities of biscuits my visitors have brought round, and get away from all-day grazing. I have no desire to consume alcohol - not sure whether the taste for it will return or not (used to be quite the wine buff).

Thanks for such a nice welcome, and I look forward to being part of the threads when I am able.

LarkDescending · 10/03/2018 12:31

purpleviolet - many thanks to you too. Yes you’re absolutely right about taking it gently (have found that a struggle - too keen to get back to normal life and earning a living!). I don’t have Mepiform but do have silicone gel/serum which I think is the same sort of idea? The lurid scarring from surgery 1 - a full-length midline laparotomy - is absolutely hideous but, as I keep reminding myself, it’s early days (wound from surgery 2 is still open so don’t know how that will go).

purpleviolet1 · 10/03/2018 13:06

Thanks lark. Yes silicone gel sounds good. My scar is horizontal all the way across from one side to the other. It's part of me now I would feel odd without it ha! When I had the steroid injections for the c section they offered it for the old scar as well and it has flattened and softened it thankfully.

OohMrDarcy · 10/03/2018 13:38

Afternoon all,

Am having a good weekend. Just checking in to keep my focus.

Lark, I have a feeling we were on the earlier threads at a similar time? Anyway I'm just back too, week 1 complete. Sorry to hear about your surgery. As long as you follow the advice and do things gradually as you heal I'm sure you will be feeling good in no time.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/03/2018 15:32

Lark Healthy habits will support your body in the healing process. So that will be a good start
Your bod will be thankful to drop the junk Smile

Do give yourself plenty of time before attempting to go to work
Rest is crucial for regaining your health and letting the scar heal; otherwise you will be working below par for many months
So do get signed off regularly by the doc, until you genuinely feel well

OP posts:
HLBug · 10/03/2018 16:57

Hi everyone. I went a bit off the rails yesterday understatement of the century ...but did do over 18k in steps between 12-4am this morning strutting my funky stuff on the dance floor. So that's got to help a bit...right?!

Anyhoo. Allowing myself a "dirty" carby/ cheesy tea tonight (faaaaar to old to be getting hangovers like this Blush) then back to normal tomorrow. I was a STS on the scales this week - TOTM the reason I expect.

Some absolutely fantastic SVs this week - keep going!! And welcome back lark. You and purple have been through so much - Thanks and a big high five to you both.

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