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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 74: If you only enjoy long walks when they’re taken by people who annoy you, don‘t worry: Fasting is a far more efficient way to burn fat

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2018 22:49

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
BigChocFrenzy · 08/03/2018 19:17

Also, I think we both agree, TIP that the "2,000 daily calories for the average woman" is far too high for many women
who are short / middle-aged / post-meno, especially combined with an increasingly sedentary lifestyle at work & home.

OP posts:
peachypips · 08/03/2018 19:30

Evening all. All done here at 550.

Re Pukka teabags- which ones do people recommend? I have the night time one and it's just ok.

BlueBelle123 · 08/03/2018 19:40

Kitchen closed at 400, decided not to have anything else as I find that easier than having a little of something and just keep thinking that my body is in fat burning/repair mode.....so I wouldn't want to disrupt it Smile

pump you've lost so much well done and OohMrDarcy fingers crossed that the scales are kind!!

MazDazzle · 08/03/2018 19:43

Sadly not quacking, as it’s kids only. There is an adult class too though. I’d love to have a go!

Here’s the butternut squash recipe peachy.

We’re lucky enough to own a second property. A cottage right by the waterfront. It’s only a few miles along the road. Once the kids are older we plan on selling our home and moving to the cottage. In the meantime, we’re removating both houses at the same time. It’s taken a long time as we have to save each month for the renovations. Went to check on the cottage today and it’s been flooded. Every room is ruined! Thankfully, there’s not any personal possessions there, but what a mess. All our hard work has been for nothing! I can’t believe the damage some burst pipes can cause.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 08/03/2018 19:47

Kitchen closed at 493... again though night before weigh in I'm feeling very heavy and bloated... so will see what scales say tomorrow.

Good luck mrdarcy and all the other's weighing in tomorrow. I'm a bit worried I haven't 'saved' any calories for potential mother's day treats, but will try and be sensible GrinGin

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 08/03/2018 19:48

Oh what awful news maz.... hope you can get it sorted through insurance...

TalkinPeace · 08/03/2018 19:53

Not particularly fasting today, but did DH and I a stir fry tonight : one cereal bowl full each and we are STUFFED
vegetables are the key to eating well with low calories

peachypips · 08/03/2018 19:54

Thank you Maz- and I'm so sorry about the cottage. What a blow. Is it covered?

littleladylawyer · 08/03/2018 19:55

Congrats pumper and well done on the fds peachy and blue.

I completely agree about portion sizes, we are presented with huge mountains of food having been taught the importance of plate clearing and not wasting food when little! Add snacking into the mix and it's no wonder we have ended up with shocking obesity rates.

quackingduck222 · 08/03/2018 20:02

Oh my goodness maz that’s absolutely awful.

purpleviolet1 · 08/03/2018 20:04

Oh no that's terrible Maz.. hope the insurance can cover it.

I think I've finished up closer to 600 calories but hey ho. Will try to keep slightly lower on NFD's over the next few days.

TalkinPeace · 08/03/2018 20:09

Maz
My parents had that - burst pipe in the roof brought down every ceiling.

Seek the silver lining - get it replumbed while the repairs are done - move to a mains pressure system (that cannot freeze) and remove all pipes from the loft.
It seems scary when you start, but it will be a good move

JustTerfingAlong1 · 08/03/2018 20:22

Well done everyone on their FDs.

Maz - I hope it gets fixed ok! Must be really stressful to see your hard work undone

My weight seems to be dropping more - down to 8 stone 7 despite eating 1800 everyday Barr my FD. That's quite a drop in a week so no wonder I've been struggling!
I think I need to allow myself a higher TDEE for my activity levels plus breastfeeding? Maybe 2000 daily plus one weekly FD of 700? Does that sound reasonable?

HLBug · 08/03/2018 20:31

Oh maz that's such a shitty thing to happen. Renovation is hard enough without stress like that.

Sounds like the Thursday Fast Gang had a good day today - high five everyone!! I'm finishing on about 480 calories, although I left a lot of sauce at dinner so it may be a bit less.

I'm on the naughty step tonight though...didn't go to the gym despite trying to motivate myself all week. I will go over the weekend though - promise!!

Weigh in tomorrow but no idea what to expect as TOTM is playing silly beggars.

littleladylawyer · 08/03/2018 21:12

Sorry to hear Maz, I hope you manage to get things sorted. What a shitty thing to happen.

MazDazzle · 08/03/2018 21:19

We’re insured, but when I phoned today the tone from the outset was doubtful. They have sent the claim to be referred because it wasn’t occupied at the time. The heating is always on at low, plenty of people come and go and we last stayed in it over the mid term break. I’ll argue my case. It’s not the end of the world. I got an awful fright when I opened the door though. Can’t imagine how awful it must be for those who’ve lost everything in floods. By comparison I’m very lucky.

Well done to all of the Thursday fasters!

Good luck HLB. Totm can easily cause a gain of a couple of pounds with me, but it wooshes off in the next week.

TalkinPeace · 08/03/2018 21:24

maz
Hold your nerve, give them a hard time.
My parents house was their weekend one and the insurers finally paid up the lot
my mum and stepdad bludgeoned them into it

BigChocFrenzy · 08/03/2018 21:28

Rotten luck with your flooding, Maz
Unfortunately most insurance policies state that the property must not be left unoccupied more than 28 days.
Insurance companies are clever about ruling out all the most likely things to happen.

terfing As you have no problem with weight gain, no need to count NFD calories - that is really only for people for have got used to eating rather a lot more than they burn.

I suggest you just aim to eat reasonably healthily on NFDs - for health reasons rather than weight - but don't restrict the amounts, i.e. eat to appetite

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 08/03/2018 21:30

You find your "natural weight" on a fasting WOL is lower than on a standard maintenance diet

OP posts:
JustTerfingAlong1 · 08/03/2018 21:35

I'm a bit scared to not count calories as I've always put weight on when not actively "dieting"! But mainly due to my chocolate/sweets habit - which the no snacking rule, plus the FD seems to be (unbelievably) fixing - so I think all of a sudden I'm eating waaaayyyy fewer calories - I've always had pretty healthy meals. Its just been the chocolate/Nutella /sugar on top!
Ok will try not counting on NFD (scary!) And see how I do.

Thanks for all the advice.really appreciate it

OohMrDarcy · 09/03/2018 07:01

Good morning all.... and what a lovely morning it is !

Maz ... so sorry to hear about your cottage. I do hope you can sort it!

Oh.... and I lost 6lb this week... 6!!!! Grin obviously that includes the 3lb that I suspect was water before my first FD. I'm over the moon! I suspect it shows how poorly I was eating prior to getting back on the wagon of course.

Good luck to any other Friday weighers !

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 09/03/2018 07:05

Morning everyone...
Weigh in today and 2lbs off so that's 5lb in 2 weeks Grin I'm still sticking to the no snacking rule, don't think I've ever managed not to snack for so long before, it's a revelation as i really don't miss it. It is hard staying firm when DH and Ds are constantly grazing buy I'm going try and cut the snacks with ds, or should 7 year olds be snacking and it's something to address later on (once he's stopped growing)

Good luck all other Friday weighers, hope the scales are kind Smile

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 09/03/2018 07:06

Wow mrdarcy a most excellent SV Grin

BlueBelle123 · 09/03/2018 07:06

Darcy what a great start well done!

Maz sorry to hear about your flood after all your hard work......if it was me I think I would be crying but I'm not a decorating fan!!

BlueBelle123 · 09/03/2018 07:09

Fortythree well done you!!