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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 74: If you only enjoy long walks when they’re taken by people who annoy you, don‘t worry: Fasting is a far more efficient way to burn fat

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2018 22:49

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
peachypips · 22/03/2018 21:07

Hi all!

NFD after b2b. No weight off this week but it goes that way for me.

Little- I like Phase 8 or boohoo.

So many inspiring people here who are at target!

FannyDaggers · 22/03/2018 21:40

All done at 477 today, will have a proper read back tomorrow as off to bed now! Well done all who did a fd today Smile

NoWayNoHow · 22/03/2018 22:11

All done at about 520. Am STARVING and must have had anout 4 litres of water today (that's surely enough to kill you?Wink). Hardest FD since I started beginning Feb! No idea why...

Well done all Thursday fasters who've made it to the end! Off to bed to sleep till I can eat again catch up on my shut eye!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 23/03/2018 07:02

Well done fanny and no

2lb off this morning, so 9lb in 4 weeks.... really thought totm would have scuppered this week so v v happy Grin good luck to others weighing in today.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 23/03/2018 07:03

Hopefully you'll get a whoosh soon peachy...

NoWayNoHow · 23/03/2018 07:11

Well done 43!

1.5lbs off for me this morning - first loss in 3 weeks, but yakes me to 8lbs in 7 weeks which I can't complain about! Good luck everyone else weighing this morning!

FannyDaggers · 23/03/2018 07:12

3lb off for me today which takes me into the next stone bracket, absolutely thrilled. Well done fortythree that’s a fab loss!

FannyDaggers · 23/03/2018 07:13

And well done noway too!

MazDazzle · 23/03/2018 07:18

Morning everyone! Well done to everyone who fasted yesterday and congratulations to those who’ve lost weight/stayed the same.

Felt awful all day yesterday. My headache got worse and worse. Was in bed at 8:30pm! Woke today before everyone else, so have enjoyed a half hour of peace before the morning madness begins. After the school run I’ve got a 30 min exercise class. Planning prawn curry for dinner with mange tout and baby corn.

No food is banned on the way of life, especially scones!

MazDazzle · 23/03/2018 07:22

Just had to scroll back to see who the scone refuser was. It’s you quacking! You’re missing out. I know what you mean about having certain foods you enjoy but don’t allow yourself to have though. For me it’s bread and breakfast cereal.

NoWayNoHow · 23/03/2018 07:22

fanny 3lbs! Shock That's amazing!!! Well done!!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 23/03/2018 07:29

Well done fanny and no
Glad your headache has lifted maz your tea sounds lovely Grin

BlueBelle123 · 23/03/2018 07:31

Well done Noway, 43 and fanny on your SV!

Maz hope your headache has gone I suffer so know how you feel Sad

Quack I have read about Jason Fung on line he's a canadian Dr who specialising in fasting treating diabetes, but they seem to fast for quite long periods it was interesting......were you think of buying a book by him?

OohMrDarcy · 23/03/2018 07:38

Fab SVs here this morning, well done 43, Noway and fanny.

2lb down for me making 10lb in 3 weeks, shan't sniff at that! Grin

purpleviolet1 · 23/03/2018 07:39

Wow lots of SV this morning!! Fantastic stuff!

Feeling a bit envious now as I should have been seeing the 8's this morning if I stuck to my FD yesterday...

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 23/03/2018 07:44

Excellent sv mrdarcy
I'm sure you'll see the 8''s very soon purple

slinkyme · 23/03/2018 07:50

Well done to all the SVs. Some great losers here. And gosh there were s lot of Thursday fasters. Purple don't worry it will shift again maybe even tomorrow. I have the strange body that the loss sometimes shows 2 days after a FD.

Managed a FD/mini FD yesterday - I think around 600/650 calories but pleased with that as came close to throwing it in. Haven't weighed yet. But will do soon. Have a good Friday everyone.

BigChocFrenzy · 23/03/2018 07:52

Lots of good FDs nailed yesterday - 43, snail, MrD, fanny, MrD, Duck, NoWay

Good NSV refusing those biscuits, MrD

Well done on your SV, fanny and your milestone

and well done on your SV and persisting through the mini-plateau, noway
Some folk do feel ravenous on FDs, when they are not yet used to burning fat for fuel.

Decent progress - some folk do lose in fits & starts rather than linearly every week, which is why I keep recommending looking at trends over a few weeks.

duck re Dr Jason Fung: He is a kidney specialist, who uses fasting extensively for those patients with high BP or T2 / preT2
I have often referred to him when posting his insulin graphs, comparing 24 hrs with / without snacks.
His book "the obesity code" is an informative read from the perspective of a doctor treating patients, not light reading though, pretty hardcore fasting.
He has blogged extensively too, medical / scientific articles.

However, his protocol of frequent fasts is rather hardcore for reasonably healthy people who just want to lose weight.
The extended fasting (over 2 days) should only be for those under medical supervision, which imo he should make clearer.
Also, for anyone who does not have T2/preT2, his low carb recommendations are an unnecessarily hard restriction

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 23/03/2018 07:59

Don't worry, purple everyone skips an FD occasionally
You'll get to the 8 stone somethings in your own time

That's an FD you nailed, slinky , so well done on powering through the problems
I would define miniFDs as 800-1000 cals

OP posts:
quackingduck222 · 23/03/2018 08:01

Peachy - same as above hoping you have a whoosh soon. Are you having a stall at the moment.

Well done on your fasts noway & daggers.

Well done 43 and noway Wow the losses are really mounting up for both of you.

Daggers - 3 lbs is loads. Some fantastic SV today.

Maz good luck for today. Sometimes it’s just best to surrender.
I’m going to look in a bakery next week to see if I can get a scone. My problem is in our supermarket they come in a pack of 4. No one else will eat them. And I will have to eat the lot otherwise.

Blue - I was looking at the obesity code by Jason Fung for my next book. I wasn’t sure if I was getting him confused with the other fasting trials bloke.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 23/03/2018 08:19

thanks quacking all this talk of scones has got me salivating - might have to treat myself to one also Grin

Just wondering if you could freeze the other 3? I have no idea if this is possible, but others might know..

Americantan · 23/03/2018 08:23

Hi all, new to this thread and haven’t read it all I confess. I think the 16:8 will work really well for me with my routine. Is it ok to change eating window times on different days? So maybe 12pm - 8pm some days and 11am - 7pm on others? I have minimum 2 stone to lose Shock

snailhunter · 23/03/2018 08:23

Amazing losses everyone! I am down a measly 3/4 of a lb but as there was much birthday feasting last week I am happy to have lost sonething!

littleladylawyer · 23/03/2018 08:55

Well done on the svs noway, daggers and 43, what a fab morning of success!

43 I have no idea about freezing scones, but I often have the same problem when I want something for a treat- they only come in packs of 2 or 4 and I only need one but don't want to waste the others.

I'm finding dinner a bit tricky at the mo, as DP has changed jobs and now doesn't get back til after 9. Even if I have something at 4/5pm to tide me over that's still too late for me to eat. It is also a pain as if I eat without him I have to sort of cook half for me and half for him later which is making meal planning more difficult. He is very happy for me to eat without him but I find it a bit weird- I'm sure I'll get used to it in time.

CheshireSplat · 23/03/2018 09:56

Morning all. Haven't managed any FDs or exercise this week. Mon, Tue and Thurs didn't get home til between 11pm and midnight and planning FDs for Tues and Thurs was silly in retrospect. However, I was quite careful, having about 1000 cals on Tuesday instead of a normal NFD. Ive shifted last weekend's gain and was 10 stone 13 this morning. Feast night tonight (DH is a fabulous cook) and we're having various Chinese dishes, a good day tomorrow and a mini FD on Sunday - have a christening and a 5 hour round trip so if I'm good at the buffet afterwards and maybe, just maybe I'll smash the 11 stone target this weekend. It's all down to how much I want it to get there on Sunday... (I weigh in on Mondays.)

Just a word on everyone's fab losses as I thought it might be helpful for people to know it's not always so quick.... I'm not really sure when I started (maybe November?) Or how much I was! Maybe about 11 stone 5. So it's taken me 4 months to lose 5lbs. But that's okay. It's permanently off and it's really changed the way I think about food. I used to eat a lot every day and now I don't! If I get to 10 stone 2 I'm no longer overweight, so that's my first goal. It might take months but it's a long term plan and I'll be able to sustain the weight loss with 6:1.