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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 74: If you only enjoy long walks when they’re taken by people who annoy you, don‘t worry: Fasting is a far more efficient way to burn fat

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2018 22:49

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
quackingduck222 · 21/03/2018 09:55

Frazzled - honestly don’t worry about the 2lbs. It’s just a blip that will sort itself out once you get a FD under your belt. That’s the beauty of this diet any damage done can easily be undone.

Well done on the measurements that’s fantastic.

permanentlyfrazzled1 · 21/03/2018 11:26

Thanks Quacking it's just been going so well I feel a bit disheartened. I suppose I could have resisted eating, but it's the effect mum has on me - don't see her very often fortunately! Very reassuring to keep reading how everyone is moving slowly in the right direction though. It's just another thing to hold against my mum 😂

peachypips · 21/03/2018 11:31

Wah I'm really struggling to keep up with the thread-- need some quality Mumsnet time!

Day 2 of my usual Tues/Wed b2b. Not even slightly interested in eating at the moment.

I've missed the birch oil and brushing discussion- can anyone enlighten me?

Well done all fasters x

BigChocFrenzy · 21/03/2018 12:09

Well done on the takeaway NSV and Enjoy your lovely gadget , MrD
That'll be no takeaways the next 2 months then Grin - it sounds expensive !

Don't worry about the weight blip, frazzled
It'll be mostly undigested food and retained water,
A good FD and a dump should see most of that gone

Focus on your inches NSV - which genuinely is lost fat
and also on your great self-restraint in not burying the Relatives From Hell in a corner of the garden
(if you didn't manage that restraint, best not to post about it < shhh > )

peachy That conversation was about what to do about loose skin, for those who have lost a few stone or so
I suggested dry brushing every few days, then (or daily) massage with burch oil, which is good for skin elasticity
Also, resistance training / pump to tighten up flabby bits

OP posts:
macnab · 21/03/2018 13:29

Just checking in I'm doing a B2B today is day 1. I did B2B last week and found it fine, I think I'll stick to that because I don't eat at all until the evening time (other than a low cal cup-a-soup at lunchtime) so at least then I can have 600 cals which by that time feels like loads!

Good luck to everyone else fasting today, am quite busy so can't really post much but enjoying dipping in when I can and hoping it will keep me on track.

Butteredparsn1ps · 21/03/2018 13:57

Ooh lots of catching up to do.

Well done everyone with SV and NSV! It’s sunny here today so I’m thinking I might be able to put some winter woolies away soon, and I’m looking forward to wearing summer stuff with confidence.

I have a small 2LB SV to report after a fortnight STS and a miniscule NSV of a cm off my hips. Progress at last.

permanentlyfrazzled1 · 21/03/2018 14:04

Well done Buttered - all progress is progress!
Hi Mac, good luck today and tomorrow, and full respect for doing b2b!
Yep, BCF, I managed to avoid doing any 'gardening', and just ate instead, but it's not easy when she's a narcissist (we diagnosed her during the weekend 😆)
Managed a 30 minute workout this morning and going to run around upstairs now putting the mountain of clean clothes away in different bedrooms, then a bit of me-time with a face mask and moustache bleach 😲 and perhaps a bit of quality mn time too.
Enjoy the sunshine!

snailhunter · 21/03/2018 14:27

Enjoy your lovely Garmin mrdarcy. I will be taking mine out for a lovely hour-long threshold run in the early evening. It's a beautiful day here and I am hoping to see loads and loads of baby rabbits all having their evening meal out in the fields.

Well done for your forbearance frazzled. Honestly, don't worry about a lb here and there. As the wise BCF says, focus on the inch loss - it's there, it's real, it's tangible. I sometimes think we put way too much emphasis on weight - it fluctuates so wildly sometimes, particularly when you're female - and not enough on inch loss.

MazDazzle · 21/03/2018 15:18

Good luck on your FD frazzled! 2 lbs is nothing. It’ll be gone in no time.

Well done on your b2b FD peachy. Hang in there, it’s nearly over.

Not long back from HIIT class. Don’t know if it’s the recent weight loss ‘whoosh’ I’ve had or reducing my sugar/alcohol, but I smashed my class today. Feel so energised!

Glad to see I’m in good company for tomorrow’s FD. It’s so much easier when there’s others on here in the same boat. What’s on the menu for Thursday’s FD dinner? I need some inspiration.

Tonight’s NFD dinner is all prepped and calorie counted: chicken satay skewers with Asian salad. I can’t wait! Grin

slinkyme · 21/03/2018 15:19

Been really naff in terms of keeping up with this thread and posting. I have only just worked out that Mr Darcy got a Garmin gadget - for a few days it was a mystery what it was he/she had bought and hadn't opened yet.

Despite rubbish time in general at the moment I managed a FD yesterday and feel so much better for this. My goal right now is just not to give up and stop doing FDs when shit hits the fan in my life in general (as I have done the previous two times I have started 5:2). Succeeding at a FD makes me feel
More positive and that I can get through all this. Managing to STS so will count that as a blessing. A healthy NFD so far with half a toast for breakfast (as no time to finish the other half) and a lovely salad for lunch. FD again tomorrow.

slinkyme · 21/03/2018 15:28

Dazzle your dinner sounds lovely for tonight. What is in an Asian salad?

TalkinPeece · 21/03/2018 16:17

Buffet lunch at work today - and its somewhere that does really nice food so a light supper beckons !

Am REALLY bored of coughing and could do with the weather warming up so I can get on with my veg garden.
Then my weight will head in the right direction again !

GrannyPenny · 21/03/2018 16:39

So jealous of your new toys Snail and MrD.

Loads more SV and NSVs to keep me motivated whilst I'm still waiting for my scales to realise I've stopped snacking.

Thinking about making today a proper FD. Total calories today so far have been 80, which was a small protein shake after my run and so far I feel fine.

Goals for today - run (done); no snacking; FD.

Enjoy the sunshine everyone.

Pumperthepumper · 21/03/2018 17:59

Kitchen closing on 513 AAAAAAND I bought myself a beautiful, beautiful jumpsuit for my holidays today in a magnificent size 12 - I know clothes sizes are a load of old balls but I was comfortably in a 16 a very short time ago and it’s lovely to have so much more choice.

quackingduck222 · 21/03/2018 18:05

Pumper that is absolutely Fantastic! Well done that is great.

I find anything like a dress / jumpsuit I end up having to buy a bigger size to accommodate my thighs.

MazDazzle · 21/03/2018 18:08

slinky I usually have beansprouts, finely sliced red pepper & carrot with a dressing of sesame oil, soy sauce, fish sauce and honey. It was food heaven!

quackingduck222 · 21/03/2018 18:09

Well done Granny you’ve done fantastic. Wink

And well done Slinky - that’s a great revelation to have.

I’ve had a shitty week in terms of can things get any worse but balls to it, I’m such a happier person since starting this WOL.
Bring on my FD tomorrow.

BigChocFrenzy · 21/03/2018 19:06

Good luck with your b2b, McNab Remember you can have 650 cals on those
How are you doing so far ?

Well done on a great HIIT class, Maz
Fasting, weight loss, cutting back on booze & sugar - can all contribute to that extra energy you noticed in your tank

Stay focused, slinky and this time you can sty the course and reach goal
When life gets complicated, remember that FDs often free up a bit more time & money: less time spent on meal prep & eating, less food to buy.

Also, I note you had an FD yesterday and have another planned for tomorrow - if you have problems with FDs, it's usually easier to keep 2-3 NFDs between them.

OP posts:
purpleviolet1 · 21/03/2018 19:09

BCF do you have any specific advice re my post yesterday ?

BigChocFrenzy · 21/03/2018 19:11

Congrats on your size 12 NSV, pumper That jumpsuit sounds brill for your holiday.

That's a good resolution with the "no snacking", Granny - remember the BigChoc 5:2 drone hovering above you
Posting here keeps us all accountable too.

That's right, duck Don't let external problems affect what you put into your internals
(oops, well, you know what I mean !)

OP posts:
littleladylawyer · 21/03/2018 19:12

Well done pumper! Jumpsuit sounds lovely- I'm always jealous of people who can pull them off. Sadly as I'm so short and quite straight up and down I look like a potato in them. The crotch is always too low!

Good fd here today, just waiting for my dinner to cook. I bought a Kirsty's cottage pie topped with sweet potato and having lots of veg with it. Looking forward to tomorrow, got lovely veg and protein packed meals prepped.

DP ordered a crate of wine so will be taste testing those over the weekend Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 21/03/2018 19:36

Purple This is similar to the advice I gave, iirc, duck a while ago …

Your overhang is probably a mixture of:

  • Fat - hormones will make this a stubborn area to shift
  • Scar tissue
  • Loose skin

Recommendations:

  • Massage birch oil into the affected area, every couple of days
  • Add HIIT, to help hormonal issues. If you you are time-poor, do the 2-5 mins Fat Blasts a few days per week
  • Rebuild your core as below

Postnatal Abs - Rebuilding Core
Only if you have less than three-finger separation.
Do these on 3 non-consecutive days per week

Plank (see pic)
Important: keep your back straight, no bum in the air !
Good form is far more important than how long you hold it
. Start at 5 secs. do it 3 times
. Build up to 2 x 30 secs

Additionally to plank, start on these exercises, only moving onto the next exercise after you have mastered the current one:

  1. Heel Slides m.youtube.com/watch?v=38xz_sRgj8Q

. Start at say 3 each side
. Build up over the weeks to 20 each side, then move onto

  1. Single Toe Taps Important: keep your lower back still all the time. m.youtube.com/watch?v=A5H4t2ZMos8

. Start at 3 each leg
. Build up to 10 each

  1. Single Leg Extension Important: keep your lower back still all the time. m.youtube.com/watch?v=FXSK4RJT6dk

. Start at 5 each leg
. Build up to 10 each

5:2 Thread No. 74: If you only enjoy long walks when they’re taken by people who annoy you, don‘t worry: Fasting is a far more efficient way to burn fat
OP posts:
yogi47 · 21/03/2018 20:13

Just trying to catch up - pumper that's brilliant NSV, you'll look amazing! Horrendous day with work and family sadness. Happily managed 100 calories all day and so was looking forward to my tea - measured and worked it all out, family all had same so easy peasy tuna recipe - just putting it all in MFP and realised I'd done all my calculations wrong and consumed a pitta bread too many calories AngryAngrySadSad... so annoying!! Well done today everyone - got a leaving lunch tomorrow at work but will be v careful and try a mini FD tomorrow to compensate.

BigChocFrenzy · 21/03/2018 20:17

yogi An extra 100 cals won't matter over the week

Tomorrow, with the leaving lunch, you could skip breakfast and just have soup - no bread - for supper, as an alternative to a mini-FD the next day.

OP posts:
Pumperthepumper · 21/03/2018 20:20

Aw thanks everyone! I’m ridiculously pleased.

littleladylawyer I’m 5’1! A jumpsuit is a very, very rare thing for me! That cottage pie sounds ace, always excellent to have a crate of wine in the house too.

yogi47 sorry about your work and family stuff, always comes at once doesn’t it? How many calories in a pita, 150-ish? I’d still count it, that’s still brilliant Flowers