5:2 Thread No. 74: If you only enjoy long walks when they’re taken by people who annoy you, don‘t worry: Fasting is a far more efficient way to burn fat

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.

• Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.

It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.

• Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss

Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.

Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !

Well done to all Monday fasters - some exceptional strength of character going on today.

I managed a 1000 cals, so I'm taking that as a NSV whilst I ease myself back in. Bonus no snacking.

HLBug - laughed at your pic - this exactly sums me up. DD and I dragged ourselves out for our run this evening knowing we would hate it, did 5.5 miles grumbling about the cold, the wind, the hills; finished feeling exhausted. Then 5 mins later walking back, felt great!

BigChoc - exercise has been my saving grace; even in the depths of my out of control eating, I could feel your disapproval when I considered cancelling a gym class. Managed to ignore you when I popped into the supermarket afterwards for snacks though ..... .

Morning everyone, nfd here but looking to hold out till lunchtime.
crocodile someone will be along to give you lots of advice, I'm relatively new but I did read about having nfd's at your goal weight tdee? Might be worth a try... but we'll done on your loss so far, amazing

Good luck any Tuesday fasters

Morning all. Hit 8 8 this morning, a new lowest point this time round (got to 8 5 last time which was too low for me). Am delighted and as ever stunned at how effective this WoE is whilst allowing real life to carry on.

I am still going to aim for a 650ish day, although tea will be a big bowl of the spicy cous cous butternut squash chicken fandango DH made himself last night while I wolfed my prawn omelette and I am not going to attempt to calorie count that.

I know I can't fast next Monday as I have a leaving do in bath and then we are in he madness of easter so things may be a bit off piste for the next few weeks or so (particularly as there is a long weekend in Rome in amongst that lot) but I will just climb back on board the fast train when life gets back to normal.

Good luck all those fasting today!

And that running pic is very true.

vivi is your tdee set at sedentary? Guidance is to do so regardless of how much you exercise...

Thanks everyone.

Bug - I am starting to enjoy it yes. And I’ve suprised myself as I used to hate every step. I like now pushing myself and beating my last record.

Your picture is so me.

BCF - I’m fine with that at the moment, because I’m managing to go further I’m not doing that many sessions per week. When I first started I was doing a mile per session so was having to go out multiple times a week.

Vivi - congratulations on your loss, wow that is fantastic. I would try 16:8 for a week and see how that goes.
My last stone was a bugger to shift I was constantly up and down loosing the same amount and stuck. I ended up pulling back on the NFDs and reducing carbs and it worked. I was slightly worried when I reintroduced them the weight may go back on but it hasn’t. I put them back in gradually and it’s been absolutely fine.

Fantastic Lamb - are you at target now?

Morning all.

Great SV Blossom.

Congratulations on your weight loss up to now Viv. BigChoc will be along shortly to give you sound advice, but in the meantime, you say you are careful with your calories on NFD but you eat to TDEE, so I wonder now that you have lost so much weight whether your weekly takeaway is simply replacing your FD calories? If its very salty (and a lot are) then it'll make you retain excess water which may bounce your weight about. Just a thought.

Forgot to congratulate you on your long run achievement Quacking - stats look good when you build up the distance! On the downside, it means finding the time to get out for longer runs ......

Bit of a restless night for me and I have woken up feeling peckish. Goals for today - eat below TDEE; no snacks; exercise class this morning which will be HIIT-style conditioning as usual instructor is away.

Saying this quietly, but I think my brain is beginning to accept the 'no snacks' rule again.

Have a good day everyone.

Morning all, FD here. Had a good NFD yesterday and got rid of 2 of the lbs from my weekend.

43 well done, that's ace! I came in to say you'll have to change your name but Maz beat me to it. The stats help don't they - mine stat is smaller than yours but I'm fluctuating between 27.5 and when it's under, I think I'm nearer correct weight than obese.

I'm going to measure myself soon. MIL asked DH if I've lost weight. She didn't ask me as she knows some people don't like being asked which was very thoughtful. I am one of those; I hear "oh, didn't you used to be fat?!" when I'm asked that question.

congrats blossom that is fantastic and well done cheshire on getting rid of the 2lb gain
I have a while to go before I can think about changing my name unfortunately, but one day

Apart from walking to train station twice a day (about 15mins each way) and dog walking, I do very little exercise and I know I should start to incorporate this into this WOL.... but I can't run very well as have large knockers and arthritis in my knee ... so any ideas as to what I should try???

Hey forty, I'd make finding exercise that suits you a fun project. I love running but it's really not for everyone. So some ideas: cycling (no need for fancy expensive bike, you can get great ones for not much at all), swimming, exercise class like Zumba or hula hooping, or circuits, join a gym and get an exercise programme, yoga, Pilates, high-intensity training - there's loads and loads out there. Have you got a council-owned gym/pool near you that offers classes you can try out?

Hi all,

Just checking in for a fast day. Haven't had time to catch up on the full thread but will later.

Had a binge weekend and really frustrated with myself. Grr. We'll see the impact on the scales on Thurs morn.

HL that quote is hilarious and so true!

43 swimming can be great exercise and low impact so fine for your knee but you would have to do drills and get out of breath. Sorry if that sounds patronising but I see so many people "swim" by drifting up and down with terrible technique (head up etc) that it probably does than more bad than good particularly if they reward themselves with food.

Do you like swimming? I can send you some training drills if you would like me to. I have swum all my life and used to be in a club, and have also done swimming training as an adult.

Morning all

Lots of SV and NSVs today (and advance NSVs if you count darcys early present to herself ). Congrats on flat BCF!

Kitchen closed yesterday on about 570, which is a bit over and also what happens when you ask DH to do FD food shopping

vivi welcome, and I'm sorry to hear you're a bit stuck - FWIW I know the feeling. For the last 3 years, I tried WW, SW, low carb/high fat, low carb/low fat, juicing, and calorie counting, and gained 2st whilst trying to lose!!

5:2 is the only thing that has worked so far, and the only way I can get it to work is to combine it with SW principles on the other week days, and then ease off for weekends. Having said that, I've had two consecutive weeks without loss (and I have a lot to lose) so hoping TOTM was the only issue as another static week will be difficult to swallow...

It might just be a case of working out what works best for you on NFDs - your body might respond better to complex carbs rather than low carb, or vice versa. You might also need to experiment with your TDEE by changing it up/down to see if that makes a difference?

Hope it helps though!

43 what about aqua Zumba? One of my friends does that as it’s gentle on joints compared to some of the high impact classes at the gym.

I enquiried at our local pool about aqua Zumba as I’ve done classes in the past that had lots of swimming in and didn’t enjoy it. I was told most of the class were non swimmers.

Or have a look on YouTube to see if there is anything that takes your fancy, Zumba belly dancing. Anything you can think of will probably be on there. And it’s free

BCF my birch oil has just arrived. All the Box is written in German. Can I use it on stretch marks too?

It smells lovely and is very soothing after body brush.

Well done on your SV, blossom
Good to hear how 5:2 fits with your life

Granny You know I have my spy camera on the drone hovering above you always

No need to run, 43 There are many other forms of exercise which are friendly to those large of nork, or who just find running very boring (e.g. me !)

If you can join a gym, then I recommend classes for spin (burns fat) & pump (burns fat and also firms up flabby bits)
also pilates for flexibility and additional resistance training

Important: to start with, don't eat more in compensation; exercisers, especially newbies, nearly always over-estimate extra calories burned - and gadgets often do as well

Vivi Some checks:

• Have you used Mosely's TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think) In your case, sedentary sounds correct
  This is the most reliable calculator - some other ones can give quite different values

• "Adaptive thermogenesis" If you have lost 40lb, then your real TDEE will be maybe 10% below the theoretical valuefor probably a year at least, before your metabolic rate increases again and you start to get to the theory.
  So, I recommend reducing NFD calories to TDEE-10%

• Check you are not eating back exercise calories on NFDs or you will be counting them twice, because the TDEE calc allows for this

• FDs: Never eat back exercise calories on FDs, even if this means you are theoretically "minus" for the day
  Also, no alcohol or sugary junk whatsoever on FDs

• What type of calories are you eating / drinking - your body probably doesn't handle them all the same.
  Are you always within NHS alcohol limits ?
  Do you have too many sweet treats ? - limit these to one sensible portion per NFD and if possible, not every NFD
  Are your meals very carb-heavy ? Portion size should usually be about 100g cooked weight, or 2 slices bread - only 1 carb portion total per meal
  Try substituting beams / peas / lentils for part of your starchy carbs

• Have you changed your habits ? - maybe added several teas or coffees with milk & sugar, that you didn't have before
  especially visits to coffee shops with fancy lattes and muffins etc

Oh and make sure you NEVER snack or graze between meals
Any "treat", or alcohol or even fruit should only be consumed as patt of a meal

Lamb well done!

I got my lowest 9 st 0.3lb this morning so holding off on that cheeeburger was wise. I'm Day 22 of my cycle and think the craving was because of that... I just want to eat lots of stodgy carbs but I shall be extra careful planning meals until TOTM

I did some measurements this morning and I'm pleased I've lost another inch off waist (now 29) and hip (now 34).

However I do still have a big overhang/ muffin belly. Hope no one is offended at the pic....Hopefully BCF / other's can advise best course of action ?

thanks everyone, and thanks for the offer of the drills blossom but I have to admit that I am one of those annoying people that has never learnt to swim properly, so head out of water the whole way and i pretty slow I used to do a lot of spin many years ago, i'm talking 16+ years ago, but not sure I can face joining a gym, but I could look for spin classes or pump classes locally?

Zumba might be worth a go although I am not particularly coordinated so I'd be like the poster who wrote about it the other day (sorry, i can't remember who it was) I'd be going one way and everyone else would be going the other!

I feel like i'm giving excuse after excuse but I just need to find something that I enjoy. I love walking and could walk for miles, but that isn't going to get me anywhere I don't think. I will look on youtube later

Well done on the inch loss purple that's fantastic

don't underestimate walking 43!!

Purple I have the same problem. I find that alcohol/sugar/salt go straight to my belly. If I reduce these my belly looks smoother and more flat. I can see the difference after only a couple of days. Have you had a csection? I’ve had three. It’s common to have a shelf/bulge above your scar that won’t shift regardless of diet or exercise. I do a variety of stomach exercises (front/side plank, crunches, sit ups, scissor legs, flutter legs), but I think it’s definitely there to stay! Sadly, we’re bombarded with images of flat stomachs, when most women don’t look like that at all.

quacking my birch oil bottle specifically says ‘for stretch marks’ on the bottle, so I’m sure you’ll be fine. I’ve ordered a few things online that didn’t have English instructions. I’m still trying to work out how to set up my DD’s watch, which came with instructions in Chinese!

I’m in a similar position to you vivi. I’m 9 days in to weighing/logging everything on to MFP and reducing sugar/junk/alcohol to try and shift the last stone. Feels like I’ve been losing and gaining the same 7lbs forever.

Welcome Vivi and well done on your weight loss so far. I think the last stone or so is the hardest to lose- hopefully some of great advice above will help.

Great inch loss purple. I'm not sure what's the best way to reduce tummy overhang, maybe toning exercises and good skin care?

I've been so busy today only just managed to have lunch, leftover veg bake and lots of salad. I'm stuffed now, it's amazing how fasting re-sets your appetite and 'full switch'. Very helpful in resisting the birthday cakes and biscuits my department is drowning in!

Maz - thank you that’s great. I can make out the words cellulite but that’s about it. My German is very basic.

Purple - fantastic and huge congratulations on your SV great stuff:
I’m gonna come back after school run and post some tummy Exercises that have helped me out.

My exercise class was cancelled at the last minute so I said hello to Jillian instead and did back-to-back levels 1 & 2 shred. I had forgotten just how hard it is, starting off with good intentions and 2kg weights and by level 2 substituting for 1kg ones.

Had a decent lunch but now feeling hungry and tired and regretting my earlier comment today that resisting snacking was getting easier.

I've obviously missed something to do with brushing and birch oil - can't work out whether it's a punishment of some sort or a beauty treatment! Off to google ...... muttering no snacking, no snacking to myself.