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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 74: If you only enjoy long walks when they’re taken by people who annoy you, don‘t worry: Fasting is a far more efficient way to burn fat

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2018 22:49

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
snailhunter · 18/03/2018 21:28

Will be having FD tomorrow having righteously feasted on my birthday weekend! I’m actually looking forward to it. Though DH bought me the very latest Garmin running watch which I have been covering for ages, so I did take that out for a spin yesterday before the snow. It’s awesome. Happy birthday granny!

snailhunter · 18/03/2018 21:42

Coveting not covering!

BigChocFrenzy · 18/03/2018 23:09

Well done on nailing your b2b, Blue
Now you can sit smugly through the coming week, Grin having got your FDs out of the way already

Does the blotchy morning face really bother you, if that's the only symptom - or does it last all day ?
Suggestion:
Check if it really is caused by the curry, by having this for one meal say on a mid-week NFD - if need be, add a side to make it more substantial.

OP posts:
MazDazzle · 18/03/2018 23:48

When I’m on the fasting train I post multiple times a day. Radio silence means my head’s in the trough. Post as many times as you need to to stay on track. Also, your post helps others to keep on track.

I’ve had three successful NFDs in a row where I’ve came in or under my goal weight TDEE. FD tomorrow.

Less than a stone to goal weight 💪🏻.

CheshireSplat · 19/03/2018 07:24

Maz that made me laugh. I'm much more active on these threads when I'm being good.

And BCF your LTB made me chuckle - I sometimes see TIP on other Mumsnet threads but have always imagined you don't stray from the fasting topics!

Have had a heavy weekend foodwise as we were away and eating in bad places, eg children-friendly pubs but there was a kind of NSV on Saturday night as when it came to the evening meal (we were with friends) I just wasn't hungry. Really bloated due to snacking on cashew nuts and crisps. I know I know ... Previously I'd always feel it would be polite to order and eat but I actually said to DH that I wasn't hungry and neither was he, so we ordered 1 burger and 2 portions of fries between me, DH and 2 small DCs. It might not sound much but I've always eaten because it's a meal time and this is really teaching me to listen to my body.

Off to weigh in now... Will this be the week I finally start with a 10.....??? If not, it'll teach me about NO SNACKING.

Iamblossom · 19/03/2018 07:30

Morning all. Weighed in at 8 10 this morning surprisingly so will do a 650 day and see how I go.

Bastard school opening at 10 due to snow which totally fricks up my day. Angry

Good luck all Monday fasters!

CheshireSplat · 19/03/2018 07:31

Oh bollocks. (Sorry.) 11 stone 2, 4 lbs on since Friday. That was a bad weekend.... 😫😫😫

Back on the wagon, FDs for me this week are tomorrow and Thursday.

BlueBelle123 · 19/03/2018 07:44

Cheshire know how you feel despite my b2b over the weekend I have STS!! I only wanted to loose a pound to get to my next mini milestone, now its not realistically going to happen until after Easter......but I will get there just watch this space!!!

BCF the blotchiness lasst about a day (slowly fades) I think it could be a combination of spicy food and menopause Sad

Maz loved the head in trough analogy (know it well!!)

Good luck Monday Fasters!!

yogi47 · 19/03/2018 08:35

Checking in to the FD party today. A weekend of indulgence and I can feel it (and see it). Not treading on the scales until Thursday/Friday though when both FDs completed and 2 very good NFDs! I know if I weigh in earlier I'll be thinking ah bllocks the same as you Cheshire! I'm going to just enjoy the memories of a lovely "foodie" weekend - not particularly unhealthy (welll....Blush) but lots of it! Good luck one and all and see you all later!

OohMrDarcy · 19/03/2018 09:21

Monday FD here. Have most of my food planned - with lots of veg and left over roast chicken!

I always step on the scales on a Monday morning to see the damage from the weekend, it is generally the same or 0.5lb up - which is fine for me as could be anything really - always gone plus more by Friday so that is what matters.

snail - happy birthday for last weekend - think I missed it!

Never mind to the gainers today - keep on keeping on and it will sort itsself out!

Blossom - You must be down south near me, we are almost all starting at 10 because of the snow too... DS is currently playing xbox whilst big sis is already at school Grin

caffeinated · 19/03/2018 09:34

Woke up to the news that the boiler at work is broken and cold makes me want to eat everything. FD today so every time the thought of food crosses my mind I neck a glass of water instead.

NoWayNoHow · 19/03/2018 09:51

Morning all! Hope you have all survived the snow! Well done to those who managed FDs in this weather over the weekend, and sorry for those who were ill!

Ate and drank terribly all weekend for FIL's milestone b-day celebration, so will be very easy to fast today as I'm still full! Going to have to have VERY good NFDs this week to see any results I think...

Good luck all other FD-ers!

NoWayNoHow · 19/03/2018 09:55

Morning all! Hope you have all survived the snow! Well done to those who managed FDs in this weather over the weekend, and sorry for those who were ill!

Ate and drank terribly all weekend for FIL's milestone b-day celebration, so will be very easy to fast today as I'm still full! Going to have to have VERY good NFDs this week to see any results I think...

Good luck all other FD-ers!

BigChocFrenzy · 19/03/2018 10:02

Morning all Smile
I'm fasting today

  • had a low carb mocha shake, then nothing until supper of salmon & salad

Snow melting here - pleaaaaase let that be the last snow of the year

Don't worry, Cheshire That weekend bloat should go after an FD and a couple of good dumps

  • it is mostly undigested food plus retained water from junky salty carbs. Do drink lots of water though - helps it all flush out

Blue The menopause manifests itself in mysterious forms
During the final stages of mine, I had weeks of skin rashes and even mouth ulcers with no cause that my doctor could find
These things pass, but it's a bugger sometimes being a woman
However, do try that curry during the week, to check if it is a trigger on an NFD, or just too much spice for an FD

Also, I found I have far less tolerance than before meno, for delic sugary crap, pizza, pies, deep-fried junk.
Life became much easier once I accepted that I need to take better care of what I put in my bod.
I'm still working on trying to have sensible bedtimes Blush

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 19/03/2018 10:05

caff That's rotten luck about work heating.
I hope you have plenty of Bovril, tea, coffee available. Even hot water helps.

Good luck noway and all the other Monday fasters

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 19/03/2018 10:12

Happy birthday for last weekend, snail Thanks
Your new running watch sounds exciting and a very thoughtful choice from your DH
Do let us know how you get on with it

Keep posting, maz, MrD, yogi, blossom, pumper, slinky & all. It helps us stay on track

OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 19/03/2018 10:22

Right thats DS walked to school (much nicer not having to drive when sprinting between 2 schools!).... a lovely icy walk... steps up to 5k already today now, though probably won't get much further until dancing tonight now as I'm at my desk until then!

Water topped up and good to go.

snailhunter · 19/03/2018 10:44

Thank you for the birthday wishes BCF and MrDarcy!

The watch is a Garmin Forerunner 235 to replace my ancient Garmin Olde Style. I have prob mentioned before that I find stats, logging and more stats hugely motivating, so am very happy to have my new gadget - it has a built-in heart rate monitor, indoor GPS for gym running, links up to MFP for food calories (though I ignore exercise cals, of course, but still like looking at them as they make me feel smug), is far more sensitive in terms of distance and pace, and links up to the phone app unlike the old one which I could only update via my desktop. Gosh, I am boring. :)

FD for me today. My weather app is telling me it feels like minus 6. Snow, ice, freezing wind. I have had the heating on in the garden office since last night and am wearing leggings, jeans, two pairs of socks, a vest, a long-sleeve top, a jumper, a cardigan and a huge scarf. I've probably put on a stone in clothes. CAN WINTER BE OVER NOW PLEASE.

littleladylawyer · 19/03/2018 10:51

Brrr! I forgot to get petrol yesterday so had to go before driving to work this morning- very chilly at 6:30!

Sorry to those that haven't had a loss, keep going and I'm sure a woosh will be on the way.

Very busy today so hoping it won't be too much of a struggle to hold out for dinner, although it's someone's birthday so boxes of Krispy Kremes are already being wafted in my face. They look very sweet and artificial, yuck.

FarTooFat · 19/03/2018 11:24

It's weigh day for me and another pound off - that's 4 pounds in 5 weeks. It was unexpected as I had a couple of terrible NFDs with lots of booze, chocolate and sweets. I did manage to keep to no snacking all week though, which I'm very proud of.

At this rate, that's 3 more years to go to get to goal weight - it sounds so far away Sad

snailhunter Love the look of the Garmin 235 - I have a FR35 and love it.

BigChocFrenzy · 19/03/2018 11:52

Well done on your SV, fartoo and your no-snacking NSV

With a lot to lose, if you can permanently retrain your NFD eating & drinking habits, you should find that weight loss speeds up a lot Smile
That's the motivation for changing habits, to many who started at BMI 35+, 40+ : the potential reward of losing the first couple of stone quite quickly, often at 3-4 lb per week.

Currently, it sounds like you eat back all the FD deficit, hence very slow progress

So, in your situation, I recommend:

  • Do TDEE Calc (activity probably sedentary) to have a rough idea of what your body burns daily and what you should aim for on NFDs
  • Do one week on mfp, to help understand what is going into your bod and what needs to change

First priority is to cut right down on sugary crap and booze:

  • sugar & booze set up craving spirals which keep you hungry & miserable
  • they switch your body from fat burning to fat storage
  • they are stored preferentially as fat around your waist
  • they are calorie bombs which make it difficult to stay around TDEE
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 19/03/2018 11:54

lawyer Communal food is sprinkled with poo crumbs & smeared by snot Smile

OP posts:
GrannyPenny · 19/03/2018 12:12

Brrrrrrrr - snow's lingering here and it's very chilly in the wind.

Lusting after your Garmins Snail and Far. Mine is several years old and I hardly use it now - it's huge and I need to wear a wristband under it as even the tightest fastening is far too big. It's never been comfortable to wear. Technology seems to have moved on, but my eyes watered a bit when I idly thought about replacing it a few weeks ago and saw the price of them.

Goals for today. No snacking. Run tonight.

Iamblossom · 19/03/2018 12:29

I consider it a gift that I would never be tempted by a donut.

Peanuts however...

Iamblossom · 19/03/2018 12:30

2 bread sticks, lots of black coffee and water and a gym session so far.

Planning poached eggs with mushrooms and tomatoes for lunch