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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 74: If you only enjoy long walks when they’re taken by people who annoy you, don‘t worry: Fasting is a far more efficient way to burn fat

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2018 22:49

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
caffeinated · 17/03/2018 09:01

Thanks purple, though I’m going to a friends Greek birthday tonight and am likely to go over tdee but there will be lots of dancing.

BlueBelle123 · 17/03/2018 09:22

Hope you feel better soon Bug I haven't been great last week as well, everytime your not well bug I seem to followConfused

Caff great loss you are doing really well, you will be under 10 before you know it Smile

First day of b2b, Darcy I'll let you knowoin Monday if I'm madWink

Hello to all fellow Saturday fasters!

purpleviolet1 · 17/03/2018 09:33

Skipping breakfast and possibly lunch as we may be out for dinner

Will do the same tomorrow

BlueBelle123 · 17/03/2018 09:43

Purple does that mean I've got company for my b2b?

GrannyPenny · 17/03/2018 09:59

Quacking - not sure whether I'll go back to Zumba - need to youtube some steps first I think. We probably went through 12 different tracks with 12 different routines, so I was totally baffled!

I was always under the impression that a lb was 3500 calories too, although I remember reading somewhere that this related to testing a lb of meat in a laboratory, so irrelevant to how humans burn calories anyway. 3500 was also handily divisible by 7 - so the 'experts' could tell us all to eat 500 calories less a day to lose a lb a week. Whatever the science is, our scales certainly don't adhere to what we've been told!

HLBug - oh no! There's been quite a bit of it going around recently. Take care of yourself.

Great SV Caffeinated. Still can't get my head around how anyone can do B2B FDs. Shows how different we all are.

Hope your B2B goes uneventfully Blue.

Am feeling irrationally annoyed. I told OH last week I was avoiding sweets etc for a while as I needed to curtail my sugar intake. "Good" he says, "I could do with that too". Today is my birthday. He has bought me a box of turkish delight. So about as pure sugar as you can get. At the moment I want to dump it in the bin.

Goals for today - exercise class; no snacking; make good food choices at birthday lunch.

Happy St Patrick's day everyone.

purpleviolet1 · 17/03/2018 10:51

Bluebell - more like 1 or 2 meals only on both days. Today is likely to be 2 and tomorrow is likely to be 1 Grin

Don't think I could attempt a b2b just now!

Granny happy birthday Grin hide the sweets away if it makes you feel better. Or have 1 as part of a meal

BigChocFrenzy · 17/03/2018 11:31

Well done on your SV, caff
Sounds like b2b works best for you.

I hope your tum feels better soon, bug - lots of nasty bugs around atm (you being the lovely kind, of course Wink )
Do drink lots of water

Happy birthday, Granny Thanks and enjoy your birthday lunch today
Good choices in your case: maybe having a delic starter & main, no compromise & properly filling you up, but then espresso instead of pud ?

That's a singularly uninspired birthday present from your OH, even if you hadn't told him you are avoiding sweet crap
Regift asap before you get tempted ?
(I mean the Turkish Delight, not your OH ! Grin)

Do you have more accessible classes available than Zumba ?
i.e. where newbies don't need to know these special cliquey tricks

I recommend:

  • spin class for cardio - you just sit on the bike & pedal at your own resistance level, novice or advanced
  • pump class for strength & tightening flabby bits - you just lift what weights you can and a trainer will normally adjust your technique if need be. Normally for all fitness levels too.
  • maybe also an abs class - usually 30 mins, also with trainer help
OP posts:
southeastlondonmum · 17/03/2018 12:54

Hi all, a 1lb on today. I'm not surprised as I have had to reduce my activity considerably but still a bit gutting. I suppose I should see it as better than nothing. It just seems like I can only lose when I'm really really good on NFD and FD which is a bit miserable.
I think when I'm a bit more up and about I might do 2 x FD, 2 x v good days so about 1500 cals, three up to TDEE. That should help a lot

BigChocFrenzy · 17/03/2018 13:07

That's a bummer about not being able to exercise, southeast

Sounds like your TDEE should be calculated for sedentary - would that be more than 1500 ?
(Mosely recommends one level lower than you think - so not "light activity" - because almost everyone over-estimates)

With 2 FDs, almost everyone loses on NFDs that average around TDEE
So I'd try that before going below TDEE
However, if your TDEE is low, that loss may be slower than the average longterm 5:2 rate of 1 lb weekly

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 17/03/2018 13:11

When you can't exercise, it's even more important to manage 2 FDs if you can.
You are used to eating at your higher level; 2FDs should roughly enable you to sts even with those NFDs, until you recover

OP posts:
BlueBelle123 · 17/03/2018 13:18

Already struggling with my b2b went for a 5 mile run this morning, in the snow............ok there were just a few flakesGrin had soup for lunch and I just want to carry on eating, I blame this cold weather...........I will just get busy and look forward to my quorn curry this evening.

southeastlondonmum · 17/03/2018 14:22

Using Mosley calculator on sedentary, I'm on 1750. I'm very tall and generally weight and record all food. It's booze. I love it but if I have a glass or two I never lose

OohMrDarcy · 17/03/2018 15:03

Happy birthday Granny

I've had a busy day today so far, including a lovely walk in a blizzard GrinHmm

HLBug · 17/03/2018 15:35

Thanks for all the well wishes everyone. I wish winter and it's miserable bugs and weather would just go away!!

BigChocFrenzy · 17/03/2018 16:42

MrD Grin

OP posts:
littleladylawyer · 17/03/2018 18:31

Happy birthday granny! I hope you've had a lovely day.

bug sorry you're not well, there is definitely something going round. Feel better soon, but look after yourself in the meantime.

Went for a lovely lunch today, I didn't eat before and had potted crab for starter and a small portion of crab chilli and chorizo linguine for main with a glass of wine. It was delicious, I enjoyed every mouthful, and I'm still full!.

bcf you are so right about relaxing every now and then, normally I would have tried to choose the lowest cal option, then still been starving and have stuffed junk this eve. Thank you for your advice Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 17/03/2018 19:01

Well done, lawyer

OP posts:
BlueBelle123 · 17/03/2018 19:12

Kitchen closed at 550.......have to do it all again tomorrow!

south what do you drink, could you may be switch to a less calorific drink?

Iamblossom · 17/03/2018 19:47

Happy birthday Granny. X

Iamblossom · 17/03/2018 19:49

Re Italian restaurant choices: in Italy on holiday we ate out everyday and I chose a salad each time. They were delicious and it meant I could also have a few slices of bread or a slice of someone else's pizza

quackingduck222 · 17/03/2018 21:28

Happy Birthday Granny! Hope you had a great day.

Well done blue on your B2B.

FD today went so well until it got to tea time then I discovered my tomatoes were all rotten. All well in date tho,
Then the new pickles I bought from a different shop were utterly foul. So have ended up finishing today on 400 cals.

Having a pint of water then off for a early night.

purpleviolet1 · 17/03/2018 22:08

Funny day here. Not as good as planned.

11:30 half a white chocolate from costa with two bites of caramel cake
15:00 glass of irn bru and rocky
17:30 two wraps with grilled chicken and salad with mango drink
20:00 slice of lamb mince and veg pizzza with 1 can of coke

Lots of sugar. Writing it down to remind me to have a good day tomorrow.

MazDazzle · 17/03/2018 23:32

Happy birthday Granny!

Weekend B2B? Bluebelle you rock!

The BSD sounds bloody hard. Very interesting though.

Lots of NSVs to report. Usually I have 2 modes: fasting/mini fasting, or fuckit I’ll eat what I like! Yesterday and today I logged every calorie on mfp even though it wasn’t a FD or mini FD. I haven’t been snacking, I’ve been limiting my sugar and cutting back on alcohol by savouring each drink. We went out for lunch and I made my choices very carefully, swapped dessert for a double espresso and made one glass of wine last the whole meal. I’ve also jumped on the body brushing/birch oil bandwagon!

purpleviolet1 · 18/03/2018 09:08

That's great maz!

BlueBelle123 · 18/03/2018 09:20

Quack rotten luck about the toms.....I hate it when a meal doesn't go to plan.

happy birthday Granny......I may be a bit late with my congratulations, I read the thread then forget most of it, you lot of brilliant memories so apologises if I missed out your SV or NSV!

Second day of b2b woken up with blotches all over my face, DH reckons its because I went jogging in the cold Confused I feel fine so I don't think its anything to worry about!!!

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