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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 74: If you only enjoy long walks when they’re taken by people who annoy you, don‘t worry: Fasting is a far more efficient way to burn fat

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2018 22:49

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
yogi47 · 16/03/2018 13:45

Well done everyone on their losses. My SV was 1lb this week, but that was with my birthday so although I was hoping for more, a loss is a loss. Someone also told me to google what a 1lb of fat looks like. I did and then I felt quite pleased with my overall loss over last 5 weeks and just to accept the peaks and troughs. Half a stone, slowly but surely... and getting into much better and sustainable habits. I think I need to up my exercise a little as noticed I've not been very active over the last couple of weeks due to work. Will get moving again!! Happy weekends everyone.

MazDazzle · 16/03/2018 13:48

Can someone summarise the blood sugar diet for me? I don’t know anything about it.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 16/03/2018 14:05

Well done yogi I'd be very impressed with a loss in my birthday week Grin

quackingduck222 · 16/03/2018 14:59

Well done everyone on your fantastic losses!

Granny - good on you for giving Zumba a go. Did you enjoy it? I think it’s like any new class, takes a while to get used to it. But it’s good fun isn’t it.

My body brush came, still waiting on the oil so used a body moisturiser instead. I may need to hoover the bathroom as there is dead skin absolutely everywhere. I don’t usually bother with body lotions and stuff but skin feels really nice and soft.

I’m going to a all you can eat place tonight, must get my backside in gear tomorrow and have a FD as I’ve been a bit on the naughty side this week. But I have a good week next week planned and lots of running. Bought a new gym kit in the correct size and am actually going to hit the streets tomorrow for the first time.

HLBug · 16/03/2018 17:14

I'm in a grump. Despite B2B this week and end of TOTM I've somehow ended up with a 2lb GAIN this week. Now, I know I had a bit of a crazy weekend...but not 6000 extra calories crazy! Grrr. I know it can't be real. But I'm still Angry

HLBug · 16/03/2018 17:16

Oh and water intake has been good and my step count is better this week than ever!!

BlueBelle123 · 16/03/2018 18:46

Well done everyone on your loses and NSV!

I am going to attempt another weekend B2B, as I have so many things coming up the next 2 weeks that I want to do a bit of damage limitation. Plus if i lose another pound before Monday's weigh in I will reach my next mini milestone.........anyone care to join me? (looks round hopefully)

southeastlondonmum · 16/03/2018 19:00

Kitchen closed at 500. I'm having to limit movement because my health condition has flared up. I'm seeing these FDs as helping me not too gain rather than getting me to target weight. Frustrating

Pumperthepumper · 16/03/2018 19:22

HLBug it’s absolutely soul destroying when that happens. I bet you get a whoosh soon though, chin up!

purpleviolet1 · 16/03/2018 19:39

Sorry late and southeast Thanks it's tough going when you aren't feeling your best

Bug sorry 💐 perhaps the plateau mentioned in the OP when you've lost 15+lbs?

I'm down to my lowest 9st 0.5lb! Come on the 8's!!

purpleviolet1 · 16/03/2018 19:43

Bug if I remember correctly you are already in the 8's so think how far you have come! Amazing!

yogi47 · 16/03/2018 19:48

Thanks 43 Smile

Ah Bug, so annoying. Bet you drop over next couple of weeks.

Good luck to anyone fasting over the weekend... that takes real dedication in my book!!

HLBug · 16/03/2018 20:10

Oh purple I wish! Been fluctuating between 9st 6.5lbs / 9st 7lbs for the last 2/3 weeks. This morning 9st 8.5lbs! No snacking either. Although I think I might be coming down with something - feeling tired and bleugh this evening and will be taking myself off to bed very soon. Maybe my body is storing fat to help fight off the germs?!

quackingduck222 · 16/03/2018 20:24

Wow purple your doing fantastic.

Bug - that really does suck. But honestly just stick with it as you should see a good loss next week. I know it’s disappointing.

Blue - blimey that’s so hardcore a weekend B2B. Well I’m definitely on for a FD tomorrow and will see how the land lies on Sunday, regardless of FD or not we will be manic so will be going through from sat tea time to Sunday tea time on no food.

I need to pull my finger out as I’ve been good this week until tea time then going over TDEE all in one sitting so that’s obviously not great.

Does anyone else find the 3500 = a lb loss doesn’t work for them? Ie you’ve stuck to TDEE but had a 2lb gain so that doesn’t work out in logic. But then sometimes you go over TDEE and STS or sometimes even loose? I find for me it’s completely random and really unpredictable.

purpleviolet1 · 16/03/2018 20:28

That's still great bug! And yes perhaps your body is reserving. Take it easy and get plenty of sleep. Hopefully next week you will see a whoooooosh!

Quacking I thought a lb was 3000 calories 🤔

purpleviolet1 · 16/03/2018 20:30

#Misses the point

I've not personally experienced it as more often than not I am naughty.. however I can appreciate our bodies aren't exact sciences and I imagine and trust that long term it would even itself out...

OohMrDarcy · 16/03/2018 20:39

Evening all, have had a relaxed dinner tonight (part of making this a WOL) . Kept my meals within TDEE , had a small ( less than 125ml) pinot with dinner as a little celebration for my 8lb loss so far.

Blue a weekend b2b... are you crazy?! Kidding of course, very dedicated!

HLBug, it's disheartening when that happens isn't it. Keep going and trust that your body knows what it is doing... It will go again

Mrsjellybum · 16/03/2018 20:44

Hi.
I'm still on 5;2 but been away.
Still managed to lose 1 lb whilst away.
Ended up doing 4 minis over 2 weeks instead of the usual.

My problem is the second FD.

Monday is FD.

But then wed is my long late shift at work and I struggle to fast on those days
Day of with my 2 kids on Thursday which is hard work to fast.
Friday I enjoy a bit of wine and quite often eat out or get a takeaway.
Saturday Sunday are a no no.

So I'm left with 2 FD in a row and not sure that will work as well ring I'd stick it.

Anyone do back to backs

quackingduck222 · 16/03/2018 20:53

Yeah purple it may well be 3000. Not entirely sure tbh.

Mrs Jelly - quite a few on here do B2B and have done over the last few weeks. Don’t forget if you do a B2B you can have 650 cals instead of 500.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/03/2018 21:41

MrsJelly With those restrictions, I recommend biting the bullet and choosing an FD from Fri / Sat / Sun
That will boost loss because those days usually have the highest calories as NFDs

Duck, Purple 3000 cals is theoretically 1 lb
BUT
your body is not a computer and there are many complex interactions of biological processes,
which can hinder that fat loss, or just hide it with retained water or undigested food.

  • That 1lb refers only to fat.
    However, due to fluctuations in water retention / release, weight often naturally fluctuates 1-3 lb per week even when not dieting
    On totm, fluctuation can be much greater

  • calories are not all equal:
    Alcohol & sugar increase the tendency to fat storage, especially around the middle, above & beyond their calorie rotal

  • Fizzy drinks and diet drinks affect the gut flora, which may hinder fat loss

  • Undigested food, especially after a heavy social occasion, can affect weight for 24 hours
    In fact for several days, if you have a tendency to constipation

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 16/03/2018 22:13

Maz Blood Sugar Diet

The BSD is a VLCD, a healthy one.
It is very quick loss but only for shortterm use, not a longterm WOL
It was developed to reverse preT2 or T2

Very strict in both amounts and types of food, so too tough for most folk who just want to lose weight

What to do
It is 8 weeks of daily 800 cals, daily Mosely's low carb Mediterranean food
Roughly stay within 50g carbs daily
Split into 2-3 meals, no snacking or grazing between meals.

Within 800 calories, eat:

  • Meat, fish, eggs, cheese, nuts, seeds
  • Masses of non-starchy veg - important to eat plenty of these
  • Optionally 1-2 portions fruit daily, but only low sugar fruit - ideally berries, but also apples, pears, Avoid bananas, mango, pineapple, dried fruit (e.g. raisins, dates), druit juice
  • Drink lots of water, in addition to tea, coffee

Where Mediterranean LC differs from ordinary LC is you also try to eat most days:

  • Beans / lentils / peas - proven to help blood sugar
  • Natural (i.e. unflavoured) yoghurt, especially Greek - helps gut flora

Do NOT eat / drink

  • NO added sugars or starchy carbs
  • NO alcohol or junk - with only 800 cals for 8 weeks, you need to choose nutritious food & cut out foods which hinder fat-burning
  • Avoid fizzy drinks, even diet ones

Exercise

  • Daily 10k steps or - on say 3 days - 20 minute HIIT
  • Optionally add 2-4 Minute Fat Blasts on 3-5 days

Alternative 5:2 BSD
Slower, but much easier

Keep the daily low carb Mediterranean, but have 2 FDs of 800 cals and the other 5 days eat about TDEE

OP posts:
HLBug · 17/03/2018 07:51

Well, something was officially wrong yesterday. Went to bed at 8.30pm feeling dreadful...and cue the onset of an all night D&V session. Stomach cramps are dreadful things and should just be banned. Bet I've lost that 'extra' 2lbs now though Hmm Quiet day today I think. Good luck blue, quacking and anyone else fasting B2Bing this weekend

purpleviolet1 · 17/03/2018 08:28

Oh no bug they most definitely are Thanks lots of fluids today to flush your system. Hope you feel better soon Brew

caffeinated · 17/03/2018 08:30

Oh bug, hope you feel better soon.

I checked in last week and then failed to come back and just spent half hour catching up. Sounds like most people had a super week.

I weighed in this morning and was surprised to see a 3 pound loss since last Saturday. I had b2b fasted Mon Tues. I actually find b2b easier because of the extra calories and getting it over and done with in one go.

So now 3 weeks in I’m 6 pounds down and determined to have a good week (fasting sun/mon) and hopefully creep closer to 10 stone though totm is on the horizon.

purpleviolet1 · 17/03/2018 08:38

Well done caffeinated! You can most
Certainly do it Grin