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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 74: If you only enjoy long walks when they’re taken by people who annoy you, don‘t worry: Fasting is a far more efficient way to burn fat

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2018 22:49

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
littleladylawyer · 15/03/2018 13:10

lamb I hate situations like that, where you could have eaten anything from 300-1000 cals but you just don't know. Glad they tasted amazing though, and it sounds like you were able to have a modest portion without going overboard.

I've just had an nfd lunch of fish cake with a huge salad, was such a delicious way to break yesterday's fast. I definitely find I appreciate the taste of food more after a fast, and I think it's also helping me view food in terms of nourishment for my body- I.e what will taste and do good rather than thinking in terms of good/diet food vs unhealthy/bad food

NoWayNoHow · 15/03/2018 13:40

Random question (and sorry if it's somewhere up thread, but haven't got through it yet). Does anyone get really bad heartburn on FDs?

HLBug · 15/03/2018 13:58

Well. I've just had a right old drama! Went into my handbag to get purse to buy lunch (first food since finishing B2B yesterday) and...it wasn't there!! Mad panic ensued. DH has it Angry. Thankfully my poor colleagues have leant me some lunch money, otherwise I would've been on 3 FDs in a row! Saying that, I'm sat here eating my lunch and it's fine, but I'm feeling ok today so probably could've managed through the dinner time without it.

FannyDaggers · 15/03/2018 13:59

FAsting here and struggling a bit today, I seem to have been hungry since I woke up! Can’t eat marmite today either as I’ve traveled to another city today for work and my jar of marmite is too big to carry round! Will keep chugging the herbal tea. Well done on all the sv’s!

purpleviolet1 · 15/03/2018 14:52

My mums made home made chips... cant resist....

Iamblossom · 15/03/2018 14:57

I know littlelady I also hate being out of control of what goes in my food. DH does most of our cooking and is used to me relentlessly quizzing him "what's in this exactly?"

littleladylawyer · 15/03/2018 16:07

lamb when I'm in control, meal planning and doing the cooking I'm good with food- eat sensibly and feel satisfied. When I'm somewhere where I don't know the cal count or it's not a set portion size I really struggle, and weirdly end up thinking 'I don't know what's in it so might as well have everything' and stuffing my face!

I hope by keeping to plan in the week and re-setting my appetite with fasts I'll slowly learn how to relax a bit and cope with these situations without freaking out

peachypips · 15/03/2018 16:55

Hi Noway and welcome.

BCF- I usually do b2b and am normally fine, but this week I went all weird. However I now think I have a sinus infection hence dizziness! I have been having 550 not 650 tho- does that matter as long as I feel ok?

OohMrDarcy · 15/03/2018 17:46

Evening all, kitchen closed on a rough 500 here. All calories in one meal, which included carrots, Swede, leek and celery so nice and nutritious too. I do love a beef stew Grin

Weigh in tomorrow.... fingers crossed it brings good news! Am trying not to weigh between Fridays in the hope o stay more focused.

The DC and I have dinner planned for tomorrow already (sausage and tomato pasta bake) and I'm feeling good at the moment. Missing dancing but I will be there Monday.

Well done to everyone who has fasted today !

BigChocFrenzy · 15/03/2018 18:42

peachy Best not to fast until you get rid of that nasty infection - drink lots of water and get well soon

When you are better, I recommend 650 cals for b2b, since that us what was in the only 5:2 b2b trials, two of them by Dr Michelle Harvie

Blossom, Lawyer Try to relax about eating socially:
the NFDs are 5 days when you can eat normally and have a normal social life - that's one of the advantages of 5:2, that you have 5 normal days for every 2 diet days.

So, if you are at a delic buffet or special meal, then tuck in.

The only "rules":
. Eat a good helping of e.g. that buffet meal, then don't snack or graze afterwards
. Stay within NHS alcohol guidelines - so drink plenty of water
. Try to avoid junk food - it's unhealthy & usually a calorie bomb, but doesn't keep you satisfied for long

Noway Heartburn isn't a usual side effect of fasting.

However, at the 1st meal after your fast, it's best to avoid:
very spicy, or acid food - especially fruit juice - or very junky food, also alcohol and fizzy drinks.

Leave those for the next meal, when your stomach has had some food and has had time to settle down

OP posts:
Iamblossom · 15/03/2018 18:58

Thanks bigchoc you ate right and when I know there is no way I can influence what is on offer I do try to relax.

I am a complete control freak in all things though....Shock

snailhunter · 15/03/2018 19:17

Kitchen closed at 459. Only one meal - Massive veg stir fry, skyr, blood orange. Added a few cashews to the stir fry which was yummy! A pretty easy day for me as was out all day. I had a green tea in Pret which kept me going.

Radicalbell · 15/03/2018 19:18

Hi all, had a weird week last week, where had two good fast days but 5 dreadful NFDs!! I just felt and looked so bloated and was v annoyed with myself. 2nd FD this week done today, and a healthier couple of NFDs, and feeling a bit better....but slightly scared myself with how a few days of (over)indulgence impacts my body (particularly my big tummy!).

BigChocFrenzy · 15/03/2018 19:34

Sounds an eccellent day, snail

radical were you snacking on those days ?
If so, that's the main habit to crack.

Also, try 5:2 ing sweet / carby junk, i.e. allow it on only 2 days per week and only one portion
Or start by rationing it to only once every other day

Junk just causes craving spirals, as your insulin levels spike and then crash, so you need another fix …
Junk & booze also store excess calories preferentially as fat around the waist

Do you find you binge when drinking, or on your own, or with family, or out with friends ?
What kind of situation ?
Try to identify the triggers and develop techniques to avoid them, or to handle the situation in nom-food ways.

OP posts:
NoWayNoHow · 15/03/2018 19:43

Thanks bigchoc - will bear that in mind when choosing my lunch meals.

Kitchen closed here too on 530cals. Still quite hungry so am looking forward to tomorrow's breakfast! Crossing all fingers and toes for a loss tomorrow - don't want to go 2 weeks without loss! Although TOTM 3/4 days off so will try not to beat myself up too much if it's a disappointing result.

Good luck anyone else who is weighing tomorrow!

purpleviolet1 · 15/03/2018 19:44

I feel as though I've f'd up my FD and was going to jack it all in but I'm not particularly hungry so I might just continue with it by not eating dinner. Not sure what the calorie intake will be but at the worst it'll be a mini FD. Will try having a few less cals tomorrow to allow it to balance out...

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 15/03/2018 19:50

Kitchen closed at 514.... got headache today for the first time snd feeling really bloated again Shock hopefully a loss tomorrow but not feeling it. Out for Italian tomorrow, panicking slightly as I won't know the calories so what do people think are the best choices? I only eat chicken and fish / seafood... no red or processed meat. Do you reckon a risotto is less cals than pasta or is pizza better (they are quite large bit super thin) argh.... help! Flowers

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 15/03/2018 19:51

But not bit...

littleladylawyer · 15/03/2018 20:00

Thanks so much BigChoc, as always your advice is spot on. I'm going out for a lovely pub lunch on Saturday and am going to have what I want, enjoy it and be satisfied rather than have a plain salad, feel restricted then overeat at home.

fortythree most Italians have lovely chicken and seafood dishes, or I think risotto or pasta with a tomato/veg based sauce would be good. I think that would be more satisfying than a pizza, which I seem to have a limitless capacity for!

FannyDaggers · 15/03/2018 20:23

Kitchen closed at 582 today, the first half of the day was harder than the 2nd half! Well done to everyone who had a fd today. fortythree I agree with littleladylawyer I think a lovely fish based pasta dish would be lovely and more satisfying than pizza, not sure on the cals though

purpleviolet1 · 15/03/2018 20:53

Settling in for an early night. Good luck to those weighing in tomorrow!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 15/03/2018 21:11

Thanks little and fanny tbh I'd never choose a pizza would much rather have pasta yum Grin will opt for a tomatoey fishy one.

Early night here too purple I get so cold on FDs . ....

MazDazzle · 15/03/2018 21:58

Successful FD here at just over 500 cals. After 4 days of being careful and calorie counting, I’m looking forward to easing off the breaks a little bit over the weekend. Determined not to go overboard and undo my good work though!

When I have a week like you Radical, I focus on the other benefits of fasting besides weight lose. You’re still doing good things to your body.

DH bought stroopwaffles and Danish pastries today! I’m lying in my bed, but I swear I can almost smell them. I must repeat, poo crumbs poo crumbs pop crumbs!

Radicalbell · 15/03/2018 22:46

Thanks for advice and comments :-)

BigChoc - yes, snacking (lots of sweeties at desks at work) and a few glasses of wine...and a takeaway....and loads of pasta over a couple of days..... I was just feeling very smug over my weight loss and got over excited 😂😂.

No more snacking needs to be my new Mantra....

permanentlyfrazzled1 · 15/03/2018 23:01

Granny, this place keeps me motivated, so hope it works for you too.
Welcome, NoWay! I used to detest water too, but forced myself to drink it, and within about 6 weeks could confidently say I loved it, preferably ice cold from the fridge, and anything else now tastes mega sweet. I do have a penchant for a hot choc on a cold evening though!
BigChoc, thanks again! I'll sort our TDEE and see how he gets on. Must admit, I'm enjoying beating him though 😆
Anyone else fasting tomorrow? I'm all planned ready: porridge for breki, omelette for lunch with just a smidgeon of grated cheese, Mediterranean cod for tea - this one's from one of MM's books. Planning a brisk walk round the block with the kids, if the rain holds off, and either a session of Fitness Coach or Joe Wicks. Have only done one of Joe's warm-ups so far, and that nearly killed me. 😲
Good luck tomorrow everyone!