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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 74: If you only enjoy long walks when they’re taken by people who annoy you, don‘t worry: Fasting is a far more efficient way to burn fat

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2018 22:49

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
purpleviolet1 · 15/03/2018 08:12

Well done lots of sv's!

Water till lunch as I feel full

snailhunter · 15/03/2018 08:25

Checking in for FD today. Excellent losses everyone!

permanentlyfrazzled1 · 15/03/2018 08:30

Granny, mmm bit tricky if your partner sorts food. Good luck with finding motivation to continue. Impressed to hear about your run: I'm definitely facing on the exercise front at the moment. 😕
BigChoc, DH is 11.5 years older than me and has Rheumatoid Arthritis, which he's on loads of meds for, so perhaps that's the answer. Neither of us really drink, and he's definitely not snacking - he doesn't even carry £ with him to grab a tiny choc bar. I'll have to work out our levels you mentioned - is that how much we're allowed to eat on NFD?
Good luck to all the fasters today 👍

permanentlyfrazzled1 · 15/03/2018 08:31

BigChoc hope you get the flat and well done on getting back on the bike!

peachypips · 15/03/2018 08:42

Ooooooo just weighed myself- new low of 11.8.

Thank you Pumper- I'm feeling a bit better just a big headache. Well done for your two pounds! That's great!

Iamblossom · 15/03/2018 08:55

Well done peachy!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 15/03/2018 08:59

well done on your SVs pumper and peachy Smile

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 15/03/2018 09:00

happy belated birthday wishes yogi Cake

MazDazzle · 15/03/2018 09:14

Wow slinky, that’s great!

Well done pumper and peachy!

Hi Thursday fasters. FD here too. We’re having prawn Thai curry for dinner, with vegetables instead of rice or noodles. What’s everyone else having?

Been drinking lots of water the last couple of days and have developed a thirst for it now. Have also cut back on fizzy drinks as a result, without even trying to.

Pumperthepumper · 15/03/2018 09:15

peachy thank you, I lost weight a few years ago and this is the lowest I got then so anything after this is a bonus as far as I’m concerned! Glad you’re feeling better, and congratulations on your SV!

Pumperthepumper · 15/03/2018 09:16

Thanks everyone!

GrannyPenny · 15/03/2018 09:51

Permanently - i'm hoping to get my motivation from here, sharing and celebrating in everyone's SVs and NSVs.

My goals for today - exercise class this morning; no snacking.

Have a good day everyone, whether you're on a FD or NFD.

peachypips · 15/03/2018 09:57

Pumper- I'm the same. After having DS2 I got down to 11.5 but never finished off as I got ill with my bipolar and my meds made me really fat again! I'm stable now so wanting to get down to ten stone. We can do it! Let's push beyond!

quackingduck222 · 15/03/2018 10:06

Well done everyone on your SVs. Far too many names to name but well done.

And great job on the B2Bs your done and dusted for the week now.

Iamblossom · 15/03/2018 10:33

Anyone fancy sharing whether they think my cal guess was there or there abouts??

quackingduck222 · 15/03/2018 11:06

Lamb - I’ve added that into MFP minus the wrap filling and at a guesstimate of weights is saying 500 cals.

I added 1/2 generic bacon and Brie sandwich. - 124 cals
2 mini wraps minus filling - 176 cals
1 slice smoked salmon - 100 cals
Cream cheese 1oz - 100 cals

NoWayNoHow · 15/03/2018 11:25

Hello! May I join?

Haven't had a chance to read all the way through yet, but started 5:2 again end of Jan as nothing else has been working for me.

Have lost 6lbs so far, have another 2st to go. FD Mon and Thurs, trying SW principles on weekday NFDs and then relaxing (but not blowout) weekends.

Have the kind of personality that gets very obsessed by diets and progress/lack thereof because my mother had me dieting since I was 11 years old even though I was a stick insect so the only way I can make a life-long change is by not thinking about food on the NFDs, and thinking very little about it on FDs.

What's working for me at the moment on FDs is no breakfast, ready meal lunch at work (+/- 300cals) and boiled egg with "soldiers" for dinner (170cals). This means I'm never obsessing with calorie counting, and it gives me the brain space to avoid going down the diet rabbit hole which just ends up with me self-sabotaging. On all NFDs (weekday and weekend) I cook/make food from scratch so not too worried about the ready meals twice a week.

FD today - lots of decaf black coffee and water (OMG I hate water) and WI tomorrow. Had a static week last week, so hoping for a loss tomorrow!

BigChocFrenzy · 15/03/2018 11:42

Happy Birthday yogi Thanks
You are right to feast on your birthday; fasting needs occasional feasting Smile

Well done b2bers

Well done on your SVs, peachy, pumper

peachy b2bs are v hard and may not be suited to you, or you may need to get used to them

Did you have enough protein on the b2b and remember to glug Marmite ?
Also did you have your full 650 cals, without any added sugar ?

The morning after a b2b, especially if you are not yet used to it, I recommend something more substantial than a small porridge - you need protein, salt & probably some complex carbs
e.g. eggs or pnut butter on wholegrain / rye toast and have some hot Bovril while that's cooking

Granny not helpful, I know, but once I reached about 25, I stopped giving a damn about what people thought of my appearance (in my case, perpetual tomboy, no makeup and never a skirt, dress or heels)
I have a "Love me as I am" policy

Blossom 2 wraps and a quarter sandwich (½ slice) with those fillings plus crisps: I'd say at least 800
(thinking of the generous fillings in places I've been)
Don't worry about it - we won't quantify the nuts & wine !

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 15/03/2018 11:51

Frazzled I advocate trying 5:2 without counting on NFDs
but then if someone doesn't lose as expected, I would suggest a full week on mfp, to check if they are eating back the FD` deficit

In that case, rough calorie target for NFDs: TDEE Calcc*
(exercisers: set activity level here to one below what you think,as advised by Mosely)
Meds may reduce his real TDEE below this theoretical one anyway

Just see how he progresses for the next week or so, with mfp to highlight any calorie bombs or portion size that you could adjust the following week.

Many folk bank cals during the week, to enjoy wiggle room on Sat or Sun or a social occasion

imo, if he is enjoying his food and losing slowly, I'd just accept that as the comfortable rate for him as an individual

Another mantra here:
It's a WOL, not a race

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 15/03/2018 11:54

Congrats on your all-time low, slinky

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 15/03/2018 11:58

Welcome, NoWay Smile
Relax, you're among friends here.

Lots of info in the OP, especially the "How to start section" with tips & links below
I don't count cals either - I got used to judging meal content on 5:2 long ago (I'm a maintainer)

OP posts:
Iamblossom · 15/03/2018 12:37

thankyou quacking x

Iamblossom · 15/03/2018 12:38

yes big choc you are probably right

Iamblossom · 15/03/2018 12:40

they tasted bloody amazing though. I would never usually "allow" myself those kind of sandwiches [sad case]

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 15/03/2018 13:01

Wow well done slinky
Just eaten lunch and I'm still peckish, the week and a half before my period arrives I normally want to eat the world Confused and usually do! How can I stop the cravings for carbs and wine???? What works for hormonal cravings?

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