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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 74: If you only enjoy long walks when they’re taken by people who annoy you, don‘t worry: Fasting is a far more efficient way to burn fat

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2018 22:49

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
Bakedappleflavour · 14/03/2018 09:34

Do you all count your calories on NFDs? I don't as I find it makes me want to eat more!

OohMrDarcy · 14/03/2018 10:54

Morning all

Still here and still posting. Drinking plenty and having another healthy NFD today and planning for tomorrows FD.

Well done to all the hardcore B2b'ers and Wednesday fasters.

I tend to 16:8 most days as I don't often have breakfast and find that works for me.

macnab · 14/03/2018 10:59

Thanks for that info BCF I'll try to do 16:8 and skip evening meals when possible!

HLBug · 14/03/2018 12:43

I agree peachy - day 2 of my B2B and I'm absolutely fine. Much easier than day 1!

HLBug · 14/03/2018 12:45

Oh, and yes baked I do still count / MFP on NFDs as I can't be trusted. Also my TDEE is relatively low so it's very easy to go over. Maybe when I start maintenance I'll relax a bit more.

peachypips · 14/03/2018 13:05

Hope flat viewing goes well BCF and that you manage your bike ride.

Sounds like you are going well baked- I am also fasting today. I need to start counting my NFDs again as I'm eating too much I think! I am greedy and can't be trusted like HLBug! Grin

It's weird isn't it HL? I couldn't care less about food today but yesterday I was in a foul mood about it all and wanted to eat my arm!

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 14/03/2018 13:07

yes i count calories also on nfds as i need to work out how to eat 'normally' so it helps me to work out the high calorie stuff that I would normally pile on like pasta, potatoes etc...

I am finding though that the no snacking rule is really helping, i seem to naturally want to skip breakfast, so by the time i've had lunch i've still got loads of calories left, some of which i use for a treat after dinner or a glass or two of wine (not every day), or if I am out over the weekend I save some for that Grin so i think if i can manage another couple of weeks eating like this then and loosing weight, then I might stop mfp'ing and try and relax a bit. Unlike bug and others though, my TDEE is quite high at the minute, so i would imagine it'll be more difficult as TDEE decreases.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 14/03/2018 13:13

hope your ankle feels okay after your bike ride BCF

Pumperthepumper · 14/03/2018 13:19

I count on mfp every day because I’ve got a fair bit to lose (about a stone and a half still to go) - planning on weaning myself off mfp once I’m at target.

Fast day going ok, about to take the kids out for the afternoon so it’ll be easier once we’re out an about. Hope everyone’s having a nice Wednesday!

purpleviolet1 · 14/03/2018 13:38

Where can I get the 92% dark chocolate? Is it Lidl?

NFD today - Went to m&t this morning and resisted getting something from the cafe for the sake of it. Had egg and cheese omelette with 1.5 slices of bread for brunch. Will drink lots of water and not have anything till dinner now. Dinner will be baked potato with cheese, mince and beans...

NSV wore an outfit yesterday which I hadn't worn in few weeks and I definitely looked slimmer. I look pretty good now if I say so myself in regards to general body shop. Just have a layer of fat everywhere but my waist is definitely more defined etc. Makes such a difference!

Had a really tiring few weeks so not managed to do any exercise but I'm going to break it down and add one exercise to my phone calendar each day so hoping that way I am fitting it in and I'm keeping it so simple that I can't over do it.

Bakedappleflavour · 14/03/2018 13:39

I vaguely follow the 'No S' diet on NFDs - which is basically no sweets, no seconds and no snacking except for "S" days (weekends and special days)

It's amazing how much you clock up when you snack isn't it.

GrannyPenny · 14/03/2018 14:02

Hi all - been given a nudge so am back.

My weight is still within normal BMI although in my mind I struggle with being 10kg heavier than I was in my 20s. But my diet is once again awful. I cannot really understand why I can be so focussed for several weeks, but then lose it big time. How do I take control and reclaim my willpower? It's definitely nothing to do with hunger.

So, for the sake of my waist. Today. No snacking. Go for a run.

permanentlyfrazzled1 · 14/03/2018 14:10

Well done to all those who've done 2 FD in a row - I'm impressed - don't think my willpower is that strong!

My 1st FD today for the week: breki was cinammon porridge, lunch is tuna and tomato salsa salad, tea will be veggie chilli with some steamed greens. Enough calories left for a sneaky 1/4 portion of home-made sugar-free jelly if my tummy is rumbling before bed - 7 cals!

BigChoc: need to pick your brains again - I weighed myself again on Monday and have now lost 6 lbs during the 3 weeks on this WOL, but DH has only lost 2 lbs. I organise all the food for the family so he's eating exactly the same as me, on both FD and NFD, and he wouldn't dare break the 5:2 rules 😉 I've always thought it's easier for men to lose weight, so I'm quite thrilled really - we're both pretty competitive - but just a bit curious as to why. Any ideas?

permanentlyfrazzled1 · 14/03/2018 14:15

Hello Granny - welcome back! Could you plan all your meals for the week/month then stick to it so that at least your 'fuel' is healthy, even if you don't get chance for much exercise? Would that help you keep away from shops and reduce the opportunity for temptation? I had to pop into the supermarket today to buy a load of baking ingredients for our guests coming at the weekend, and it was so hard not to pick up a little treat for myself. Do you have any special occasions coming up that you can focus on for motivation?

Bakedappleflavour · 14/03/2018 14:24

I'm really in awe of people who exercise on FDs - that would make me keel over!

Granny what I found great about 5:2 in the past is that it really helped that side of things - I didn't WANT to eat as much. It's also why I don't calorie count on NFDs as I find I actually end up wanting to eat much more.

Slight change of plan today as I had a last minute meeting I had to go to on behalf of a sick colleague so had to grab a quick m&s lunch, totally 236 cals.

Also having a bottle of fizzy water which is helping the hunger pangs.

How often do you all weigh yourselves?

quackingduck222 · 14/03/2018 14:47

Granny - Great to see you back! Just take one day at a time and small steps.

Purple Lidl do have a great range of dark chocolate complete knock offs of Lindt IMO but quite a lot cheaper. And great NSV.

Baked - yes still using MFP. Didn’t in the beginning but quite quickly worked out as soon as I started using it I was over TDEE most days. I’m using it now so I get upto it most days.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/03/2018 16:36

BakedApple No need to count NFD calories unless your "normal eating is way over TDEE
I suggest you try without counting, but review if your progress is not what you expected

The NoS diet is very useful, but one change:
From experience, we recommend NO snacking EVER, even at weekends or on holiday

Go for it, Granny and next time you feel tempted to snack, remember
"little pickers wear bigger knickers"
Snacks are useful for people who need to GAIN weight, especially sick, underweight DC

Well done on your cafe NSV and clothes NSV, purple
Avoiding cafe snacks & lattes is what helps bring the clothes NSV

Well done on your SV, Frazzled
Your DH is unusual in losing less than you, but that may be just his individual bod

However, a few thoughts:

It may be then when he's outside and not under your eye that he's been snacking, even without realising it.
Even lattes, alcohol and fruit count as snacks, because they hinder fat-burning, as well as usually adding sugar

Or it may be down to portion size, or even having lots more creamy dressings, mayo, alcohol

Calculate his TDEE and yours - if he is smaller / older/ less active, his TDEE may be lower

If none of the above, some meds like ADs increase the tendency to build / hold on to fat
So do some conditions like thyroid

OP posts:
purpleviolet1 · 14/03/2018 16:38

Thanks is anyone able to post a pic of it? 92% dark choc

CheshireSplat · 14/03/2018 17:40

No no no no no.

FD here. Need sesame seeds. Was planning to go at lunchtime but work got in the way. So I've got to go now. At 6pm. On a FD. Having only had a hard boiled egg and a raw carrot.

Anyone got a mantra for me to chant to help me avoid the scotch eggs. ConfusedConfusedConfused

I can have it tomorrow isn't going to cut it!! 😁

Wish me luck as I enter the great abyss.....

CheshireSplat · 14/03/2018 18:38

Got home unscathed!!😁

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 14/03/2018 18:45

Well done cheshire

purpleviolet1 · 14/03/2018 18:49

Well done Cheshire!

I've just remembered it's the anniversary of something special to me. So tempted to order a takeaway but I'm not!

FD tomorrow

littleladylawyer · 14/03/2018 18:54

Well done Cheshire!

Baked- I have a low tdee so I calorie count during the week but not at weekends. I'm not really trying to lose anymore but I like to know I can relax at the weekend having had a good week. I find it quite fun working out meal plans and counting- I know I'm weird!

Am ravenous now, got my dinner in the oven and it can't cook quick enough! Will then be done for the week which is a nice thought though. Good luck weds fasters- we can do it!

snailhunter · 14/03/2018 19:05

baked I have used MFP since I started back in Jan and thus far it's worked for me. I actually have it set to a TDEE lower than my actual one and try not to go over that on NFDs. I respond very well to counting and targets and logging and tracking and all that kind of thing, so it works for me. I am considering not tracking for the first time in 66 days this weekend as it's my birthday, but at the same time I like seeing my calorie deficit enter the 3000s...

NSV for me today: you know how your bra has three fastenings? I'm now having to use the tightest one! From the least tight one back in Jan. Am planning on treating myself to total restock of underwear drawer when I hit target.

And FD for me tomorrow - will hopefully not be too hard as I have a work trip to another city, and I hate pretty much all food you can buy at train stations, which helps.

Pumperthepumper · 14/03/2018 19:08

Gaaaaah all going well until I finished my dinner and then hoovered some leftovers 👎. Finishing up B2B fd2 on around 670. That’s my highest ever FD. I hate b2bs but I also hate not having the fds over quickly.