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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 74: If you only enjoy long walks when they’re taken by people who annoy you, don‘t worry: Fasting is a far more efficient way to burn fat

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2018 22:49

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
TalkinPeace · 13/03/2018 18:22

peachy
The metabolic age number is one of the most motivating as you can make it go down
mine is 16 years lower than my real age (the maximum) and I intend to keep it that way Grin

A friend of mine is a model for Storm
she is very slim and willowy and inhales huge plate fulls of vegetarian food
because she is 5'10" Smile

MazDazzle · 13/03/2018 18:36

Just googled Boditrax. I’d love a go on one of those machines, though I might not say that after getting the results.

The 6 ingredient stew looks yummy late.

I contemplated a second FD today, making it a b2b, but I was ravenous. Managed to hold out until 1pm, then I had a Thai chicken and lemongrass cup a soup, 3 ryvita with cream cheese and houmous and half an apple. For dinner I had lentil soup with gammon followed by berries with Greek yogurt and mixed seeds. If I have a square of 80% dark chocolate with my coffee it’ll take me to 1200 cals.

I’ve managed to drink lots of water today too, so all in all a decent NFD.

BigChocFrenzy · 13/03/2018 18:38

lawyer A mini-meal contains protein, optionally fat, veg. No junk or booze with it.
That's not a snack, especially if you aim to keep 4 hrs between meals, e.g. 12 pm lunch, 4 pm mini-meal, 8:30 dinner.

Easy choices: Natural pnut butter or hummus on 1 slice wholegrain toast / Boiled eggs / tin of tuna (in brine not oil) with lemon & veg / crab sticks or prawn cocktail with mini-salad & vinaigrette dressing /…

macnab To broaden your horizons: healthy recipes by Chrissy Freer (Ozzy nutritionist))*

Duck Her Salmon with White Bean Mash & green beanss* might suit you:

FD Recipes (More in the OP "How to Start section")
BBC Good Food 522<a class="break-all" href="http://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/collection/52%20BBC%20Good%20Food%2052%5D%5D%20,%20%5B%5Bthebloodsugardiet.com/recipes-by-diet-type/low-carb/%20Mosely%20LowCarb%5D" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"> , Mosely LowCarbb , BBC Good Food 500 cal mealss*

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 13/03/2018 18:40

Yup, tip, biology is heightist and also sexist:
blokes have higher % muscle and usually higher TDEE , so they tend to lose more easily on any WOL
This can cause friction if a competitive couple 5:2 together Wink

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 13/03/2018 18:49

Most women do not need the same amount of food & alcohol as their male OH, but it's natural to share fairly.
However, even with the same height, weight, age, & exercise level, the OH will have a higher TDEE
So he stays lean, while his partner expands & stresses

OP posts:
Iateallthebread · 13/03/2018 18:51

So men get to avoid periods and eat more food? That’s just unfair!

quackingduck222 · 13/03/2018 19:11

Thanks BCF that looks really nice, I like callilini beans but apart from putting them in my carrot and Swede Sheppard’s pie or stew I never know what to do with them.

I’ve just had smoked salmon and boiled eggs on toast and it was so beautiful I must have that more often.

I found I was getting a bad tummy from the oily fish a few months ago but going to preserve as I bought lots fish yesterday in Lidl.

HLBug · 13/03/2018 19:41

First day of B2B done - finished at about 640 kcals. Tomato soup for lunch, milky coffee late afternoon then smoked salmon, scrambled eggs and pitta bread for dinner.

That's useful to know re the boditrax TiP and peachy - I was a bit overwhelmed yesterday when I got all my readings and I didn't really know what was actually important to look at! I'm going to focus on lowering my metabolism age I think. It's currently 4 years younger than my "actual" age so I'll try and get that lower. It also told me I have fat thighs / legs (like I didn't know that already Hmm) so I'll try and get them to a nice green colour too.

Iamblossom · 13/03/2018 20:36

Ok.

You'll all be delighted to hear I am done.

I did cave a bit I'm afraid. I felt utterly crap after a long dog walk, really light headed and dizzy, kept dropping things, no attention span, really snappy with everyone. Had 2/3 of the boys' chips and two water crackers.

I had my turkey chilli but added leftover swede, red cabbage and sprouts from Sunday's roast so I expect I am at 800 or thereabouts.

But I am full and feel human again.

I think the hardest thing was being at home this afternoon cooking. If I did a B2B again I would choose busier days.

purpleviolet1 · 13/03/2018 20:39

Well done lamb Grin

TalkinPeace · 13/03/2018 20:48

iamblossom
Back to Back is hard core.
I've never done it Grin

What I regularly do is just have supper

  • today I had two bananas when I got home from work at 3
  • have had several cups of tea
  • and then went out for curry with DS (sweet chilli paneer, chicken pathia, 1 naan, 1/3 portion of rice, lime soda)
so well within my TDEE and I'll sleep well and not eat till lunch tomorrow

hlbug
the other cool thing about boditrax is it highlights low bone density
useful to see.
If you measure yourself twice a week for a couple of weeks you'll get used to it.

Iamblossom · 13/03/2018 21:02

Yeah Tip I can see myself doing that.

It was such a psychological battle - kept thinking if I just have this amount of food I need to eat it at points which will enable me to not crack.

I think I might be better off keeping to a higher than 650 number but lower than TDEE by doing something similar to you.

OohMrDarcy · 13/03/2018 21:19

Well done to all the Tuesday fasters / b2bers - rocking it as ever.

I am currently about to go brush / oil myself Grin How often should I be doing this? Weekly for now? or more / less often?

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 13/03/2018 21:51

Well done Tues fasters and those doing b2b... amazing!

Good nfd here and I've managed to squirrel away about 350cals for compensation over weekend as I'm out for a meal twice... eek. Planning to do similar to tip though and have no breakfast followed by something very light so I'm saving most of my calories to cover meal, fingers crossed it works out!!

Pumperthepumper · 13/03/2018 21:57

Finished up on 560 but struggled today. Normally feel fine but today I could eat a horse. Think it’s psychological because I know I’m fasting tomorrow too!

Nice work to all the Tuesday fasters, best of luck to everyone fasting tomorrow 👍

BigChocFrenzy · 14/03/2018 00:13

Well done on your b2b, blossom and all the other Tuesday fasters

blossom With b2b, imo it's useful to have a mini-meal in the fridge, in case you need it,
or just handy ingredients to choose from
e.g. boiled eggs, smoked salmon, guacamole, lemon, rye / wholegrain bread to toast

MrD Oiling should be daily or every other day; only takes 2 minutes.
Brushing - anyone done this ?

OP posts:
Iamblossom · 14/03/2018 07:24

Morning.

Hit 8 9 this morning.

So mission accomplished for this week - it does get it over with and it does mean I get two done which I haven't managed for the last few weeks.

Now just need to be sensible with tdee for the next few days.

Thanks for enduring my endless commentary. Smile

macnab · 14/03/2018 07:51

Quick question - on a NFD do you all not start eating until later? Like 16:8? I did two FDs yesterday and Monday,

quackingduck222 · 14/03/2018 08:07

Mcnab - 16:8 here. The only exception I make to this is occasionally I go out for breakfast maybe every 2 months or so.

But that’s taken a long time to get used to, in the early days I was very hungry the morning after.

Lamb - well done you’ve done absolutely fantastic.

Darcy - good luck with your brushing / oil. I checked out some YouTube techniques. My brush is taking far too long I have a funny feeling it’s actually coming from China.

littleladylawyer · 14/03/2018 08:40

Thanks BigChoc, hopefully I won't need to every nfd but sometimes get a bit shaky if dinner ends up being late so hopefully something protein based will sort me out.

Good stuff lamb, you've earned it after b2b. Fd here today, very busy at work at the mo so hoping to hold out until dinner. Going to run to M & S at lunchtime and treat myself to one of their fuller longer type meals and add salad for supper.

Does anyone else find their sense of smell with regard to food is much more sensitive on a fd?! I swear I smelt a flapjack from about 10m away on Monday!

Bakedappleflavour · 14/03/2018 08:41

Weirdly I find the more I've eaten the day before the hungrier I am the morning after.

peachypips · 14/03/2018 09:12

HLBug- I have gradually seen my limbs get more and more green on the Boditrax! My metabolic age is only 3 yrs younger than my actual age (39) so I am aiming for 25Grin

I think wrt smell- everything is heightened wrt food on a FD!

Day 2 of b2b. As usual I am far happier on my second day than my first. Not hungry.

BigChocFrenzy · 14/03/2018 09:27

macnab The main thing is that this WOL should be sustainable for you personally
Why not split this change into smaller steps:

On NFDs, try delaying breakfast by say 1 hour for the next 2-3 weeks
next delay it by 2 hrs
etc until lunch is your first meal

Some days, when I'm at home, my 16:8 is via skipping supper - generally more effective for losing weight than skipping breakfast

Alternatively to 16:8, you could skip lunch and just eat breakfast & supper, for 2 long daily fasts
That means a more substantial breakfast, with plenty of protein & veg, some complex starchy carbs.

e.g. today, I've no time for lunch - I'm off to the gym soon, then viewing another lovely flat v near Rhine & gym Smile
I'll also cautiously try my first (short) bike ride since my accident

So I had:
smoked salmon, lemon, guacamole, tomatoes & Philly on one slice of rye toast

  • a small bowl of porridge with chia seeds & 1 square of 92% cocoa choc
  • small tub of water melon
OP posts:
MazDazzle · 14/03/2018 09:28

I try to do 16:8 on NFDs, but today I really fancied breakfast. Had half a skinny bagel with whole peanut butter and berries (185 cals). Feel satisfied now.

Won’t be having anything else until dinner, which will be Caesar salad with boiled eggs.

Bakedappleflavour · 14/03/2018 09:33

2nd FD for me today. Still going to be doing 800 cals. Plan:

200ml soy milk for tea (cannot do without tea): 66 cals

Lunch: 2 x veggie sausages (150 cals), mashed avocado with lime and chilli (85 cals), ryvita (45 cals) and cottage cheese (50 cals) = 330 cals

Dinner: Prawn and veggie stir fry and a massive salad (250 cals)

646 in total. Gives me a bit of leeway if I suddenly get starving and need a hard boiled egg or an apple or whatever.

Last time I did 5:2 I lost a stone in 6 weeks doing 800 cals plus the med diet but if it doesn't go so well this time I shall switch to the traditional way.

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