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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 74: If you only enjoy long walks when they’re taken by people who annoy you, don‘t worry: Fasting is a far more efficient way to burn fat

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2018 22:49

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
quackingduck222 · 11/03/2018 19:08

Of course Blue, it’s a special day. Hope you enjoyed yourself?

Hope all the mummies on the thread had a nice day.

That was a banging FD tea, all week I’ve eaten expensive meat & cheese and a simple eggs on toast and beans was the best meal of the week by far. I would normally avoid carbs on a FD but just fancied something different today and that soya and linseed bread is amazing.

quackingduck222 · 11/03/2018 19:10

Lamb do you normally do b2b FDs? Don’t forget you get extra calories 650 I think??

Iamblossom · 11/03/2018 19:26

No I don't quacking. Is it 650? I wondered if it was 600?

I think it's doable, I am at home both days, I was planning to eat the same thing on both:

2 eggs
Half a tub of Skyr yoghurt
Tray of meditation roasted veg (Lidl to them, 124 cals)
Prawn salad
Options hot choc

Iamblossom · 11/03/2018 19:27

Ha ha Mediterranean veg - wonder what meditation veg tastes like...

BigChocFrenzy · 11/03/2018 19:57

blossom On b2b you can have 650 cals

I recommend this, because b2b FDs are Dr Michelle Harvie's version of 5:2
and her human studies all used 650 low carb cals on FDs.
Her research focused on overweight middle-aged women at risk of breast cancer return and was sponsored by cancer charities.

Everyone else - Mosely, Varady etc - refer to human trials with non-consecutive FDs, where they used 500 cals.

The reason the higher amount works for b2b is that FD2 starts already in a fasted state, whereas with single FDs, it takes several hours to reach the same state.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 11/03/2018 19:59

For blokes:
You get 600 cals for single FDs (or ¼ TDEE if this is higher for you)
So I suggest 800 cals if you b2b

OP posts:
Iamblossom · 11/03/2018 20:07

Right I'm going to give that a go.

And I've written it down now so I will have to!

purpleviolet1 · 11/03/2018 20:14

Fd for me tomorrow ... will be checking in...

NSV today that I didn't force myself to finish off my plate when I became full. I was also reaching for can of coke and asked myself why, it's because I'm tired and craving sugar so instead I've had some dilute and getting ready for an early night!

quackingduck222 · 11/03/2018 20:22

Well done purple, that is a huge achievement. It really is.

Excited as off to Lidl tomorrow and I get to check out there pickles that TiP suggested. If I like gerkins what else may I like?

permanentlyfrazzled1 · 11/03/2018 20:23

Lateallthebread - whereabouts in the world are you? We're south Lincs/Norfolk/Cambs border.
Duck - Maya's great, isnt she! Makes me giggle when she says ' It seems you've been having trouble making it to your workouts lately' when I haven't visited her in 4 months! Always feel like I've worked hard, although I do struggle with the push-ups and sit-ups. 😣
How's everyone got on with FD today?

Iateallthebread · 11/03/2018 20:43

Frazzled we are up in Aberdeenshire, so quite far from you but there’s quite a good home ed community growing up here.
I’m not sure if this counts as a nsv but I treated myself to my favourite pre 5:2 snack today. First time I had them in ages. It’s gathia, a garlicky, crunchy, highly calorific thing that I used to devour large bags full of, and I think my addiction to it is largely responsible for the extra weight I’m carrying. Anyway today I had some and I couldn’t eat very much of it. It tasted greasy and filled me up in a couple of mouthfuls. I was amazed!
Planning to get back on plan this week coming. Well done to everyone who has done so well this week.

Unescorted · 11/03/2018 22:20

Not checked in recently but have still been plugging away. I finally got to weigh myself... I have lost 3.5 kg and got back to a healthy BMI. Thanks for the support and inspiring stories. You guys are awesome.

purpleviolet1 · 12/03/2018 07:14

Well done unescorted!

FD today. Whose in?

Iamblossom · 12/03/2018 07:19

Moi. Je suis in sur this Monday starve day, as my DH calls them.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 12/03/2018 07:24

Well done unescorted

Checkingin for a FD today after a very relaxed mother's day which involved cake and fizz and the most amazing rhubarb and ginger gin Grin I also saw a couple of snacks sneaking in which I need to curb as hadn't sacked for 2 weeks! Just goes to show what happens when you take your eye off the ball....

Anyway, just tea and water till lunch then either soup or a big salad, not sure yet for dinner.

Who else is fasting today?

yogi47 · 12/03/2018 07:27

Checking in for a FD here purple.... NSV here too... although no loss last week I tried some new clothes on in usual size yesterday, had to send back as too big and keep smaller size. And that's just through a total loss of 6lb. You are all teaching me so much. Good luck all Monday fasters.... always interested to hear what people are eating, suggestions? I'm banana and natural yoghurt, skinny arrabiata soup, cod and broccoli/spinach.

BlueBelle123 · 12/03/2018 07:33

Weigh Day today and I've lost 4lbs Smile one more pound and I will have met my next mini milestone.

Good luck to all Monday Fasters!

yogi47 · 12/03/2018 07:40

Well done Blue... amazing!!

quackingduck222 · 12/03/2018 07:52

Well done unescorted.

Good luck on your FD purple, yogi, 43 & lamb

Yogi what a great NSV have you done your measurements? You may have found you’ve lost a dress size through inch loss.

Well done Blue, fantastic work.

Week 5 Maintenance weigh in and I’m
0.02lbs under target. I feel I’ve had a good week. Bang up to TDEE each day and I can’t say I’m low carbing any more but making better choices from my usual way of life. Pleased with that as I was worried it would massively push my weight up.

Iateallthebread · 12/03/2018 08:08

FD here. First one for two weeks after feeling bleurgh with the cold. Planning on having split pea soup for lunch and veg and lentil stew for dinner.
Well done yogi, blue and unescorted.

BigChocFrenzy · 12/03/2018 08:19

Good luck Monday fasters Smile

Congratulations on your healthy BMI milestone, unescorted

Well done on your SV, Blue, so close to your next mini-milestone

That clothes NSV means you've lost fat, yogi

That's a maintenance NSV, duck
Some folk who think they can't eat starchy carbs in fact have a problem with sugary or junky carbs
i.e. with cake, biscuits, sweets, pizza, crisps, deep-fried food etc or with huge portions of rice or pasta

Enjoy your carbs sensibly, just as you are doing
and don't worry about fluctuations of a few lb, so long as you stay above your minimum weight

OP posts:
purpleviolet1 · 12/03/2018 08:21

Great NSV yogi and well done bluebell!

Need to be very good today. This past week has been slipping into bad habits and grazing on Easter eggs Blush I've not been weighing daily and I think I need to start again as it acts as a daily reminder

quackingduck222 · 12/03/2018 09:04

BCF - I am really actively trying to avoid the foods you’ve mentioned. I could have them as a treat occasionally but I just don’t fancy it.

Minimum weight is 5lbs under target so feel quite safe that I won’t reach that not that I want too.

I’ve set myself a limit of 2lbs under target and 2lbs over and not gone under or over as yet. I’m finding it works for me. if I near the under end of the 2lbs I’ll eat a bit more. Go to the top end and cut back or throw in a fast.
It’s taken the weight off my mind and I can chill a bit more now.

I am pleasantly surprised as I was dreading maintenance as it’s new and I’ve struggled in the past. But this WOL rocks.

CheshireSplat · 12/03/2018 09:09

Morning everyone. After 2 weeks off (whoops), I've just done a week back on the wagon and got back to where I was 3 weeks ago... 11 stone 0 and 3/4.... Was very relaxed on NFDs last week so pleased with that result. AND most excitingly, I will lose a lb this week and my weight will never start with a 11 again. That's the plan. I'm away next weekend with friends so it'll be tough, but it isn't a gourmet food weekend, self catering with an on site crap pub so I will make sure I only eat for fuel and concentrate on enjoying other aspects of the weekend.

Oh and Peachy I'm a recent convert to Parkrun. Love it now; in fact I've already checked out where the nearest one is next weekend for a bit of Parkrun tourism. And it cleared my red wine hangover on Saturday morning like nothing else.

Good luck all Monday fasters.

OohMrDarcy · 12/03/2018 09:36

Morning all

Checking in for a Monday FD here.

Had a very relaxed Mothers day and didn't check cals at all though I suspect TDEE or somewhere close. Started with tea and home made chocolate sponge in bed Blush then cooked a mammoth roast for my parents so had plenty of veg there (6 types). Did have a small glass of wine, and a pudding after the roast but its about making it a WOL isn't it. I want to be able to enjoy special days so I let myself!

Anyhoo - quacking / BCF was reading your discussion re loose skin etc, and remember having that issue last time, so I've ordered the birch oil now. I have a brush somewhere and I'll get looking at resistance exercises! Getting ahead of the game is my plan.

Well done everyone on all the lovely SV / NSVs!