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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread No. 74: If you only enjoy long walks when they’re taken by people who annoy you, don‘t worry: Fasting is a far more efficient way to burn fat

999 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/03/2018 22:49

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally" means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE if higher) or 1000 cals for BF
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, new skinny jeans

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below as a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp , mfp
Calories for NFD: TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
FD Recipes: BBC Good Food 52 , Mosely LowCarb , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals
Any Day: Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie
Safe Alcohol: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BF Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body variations ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • CLENCH for health: Men & women should exercise pelvic floor daily
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

If you exercise, do NOT increase FD cals
Instead, calculate NFD target with your activity level set one level below what you estimate.

  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid / reduce starchy carbs & sugar, including juice. Soups & stews are good; ready meals are fine. Most prefer either to skip breakfast & save most cals for supper, or have 2 meals.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
Aim for TDEE, but you may under-eat by say 20% on 3 NFDs to save calories for weekend.
  • Plateau / Losing & regaining same few lb: Many folk have a plateau after losing 15 lb +, while their body rebalances.
It may also be a longterm "set point" weight, so homeostasis is causing your body to resist losing more fat. Just be patient & you'll break through. However, if this persists for 4 weeks+ then typically you are overeating on NFDs, so aim to average within TDEE - mfp for a week, to reality check.
  • Lots to lose - how to speed up weight loss
Optionally calculate the lower TDEE for goal weight, but eat to current weight TDEE at least 1 day per week. This helps your body adjust to needing less food as you lose weight. Also trains you how to eat to maintain goal weight.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
When ill, your body usually needs more nutrients and less stress. So don't force yourself to eat, but if hungry then eat nutritious food to TDEE & cut out junk, added sugar, fizzy drinks, alcohol.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Useful MN Threads

5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3 gives advice & support on combining 5:2 with exercise.
The OP explains science behind fasting, exercise & health & has many calculators.

5:2 FD Recipe Thread
Post your own too !

5:2 / IF Inspirational Thread has reports from Mumsnet 5:2ers who have lost weight.

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis which explains the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a strict fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Roundup

A BIG THANK YOU to everyone who has contributed their experience and tips over all these threads.
Flowers
Any lurkers and newbies, come join us and share your experiences too. These are lovely supportive threads and everyone is welcome !
Smile

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
TalkinPeace · 10/03/2018 17:16

Here is an amusing article I just found that investigates the life outcome sof lots of food gurus Grin
www.nytimes.com/2018/03/09/opinion/sunday/longevity-pritikin-atkins.html

caffeinated · 10/03/2018 19:08

Evening,

I lurked here 2 years ago and managed to lose a stone and a half in 4/5 months. I have quite a stressful job and took solace in food and found myself weighing 11 st 9. My target is 10 stone. I lost 2 pounds last week and a pound this week. Have been doing my 2 fastcdays consecutively the last two weeks but this week I’m gonna do them separately. I’m not finding it too hard to be honest and I feel healthier already making good food choices. Drinking all the water.

quackingduck222 · 10/03/2018 19:41

Well done mighty that’s fantastic.

Lark - hello and im so sorry to hear your news. Absolutely hats off to you for wanting to get back into fasting especially after everything you’ve been through. Flowers

Purple keep rocking your FDs and you will nail that target.

Bug, never mind my dear these things happen and 18k steps Shock wow that is a huge amount.

Cafe hello and well done that’s fabulous. Good on you for doing B2B fast days straight away. That’s hardcore.

permanentlyfrazzled1 · 10/03/2018 20:35

Hello Caffè - welcome to our little community. I love it here! Need to find more time to chat rather than just post and run though.
Scales this morning showed 1 lb loss, which takes my bmi from 26.9 when I started 3 weeks/6 FD ago, down to 26.1. Not too bad for only 2 hours of badminton one evening, and no other exercise all week.😶
It was my waist measurement that put a smile on my face though: 1.5" reduction, so heading in the right direction to reduce the chance of my family predisposition of type 2 diabetes passing onto me.
A pp asked if anyone was using an event as motivation to reduce weight/size: we've just been invited to a July wedding so I'm looking forward to buying a new dress, but I fancy a whole new summer wardrobe when everything I currently own falls off me. 😆
BigChoc - will this way of life reduce fat everywhere? Over the course of having 4 kids, I seem to have developed back fat 😲 which I would dearly love to wave goodbye to.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/03/2018 20:40

Welcome, caffe Smile and well done on your FDs & SV
You've lost weight on 5:2 successfully before, so sounds like your body has re-adapted easily to fasting

I recommend, as for everyone, that when you get to goal, you have a defined lifetime maintenance plan
so you never have to lose this weight again, except to drop a few lb holiday weight now & then

For most folk, 6:1 and the good 5:2 habits - no snacking or grazing, being sensible about sugar & booze - are sufficient
but some of us continue with 2 FDs for the health benefits and - especially for those with low TDEE - to eat more on NFDs

OP posts:
TalkinPeace · 10/03/2018 20:44

permanently
No weight loss method can "spot reduce" fat
BUT
if you drop over all body fat AND tone muscled massive increase in blood flow in certain areas you can selectively tone.

And toning is FAB - its well known that I'm a yoga addict, but weight bearing exercise is great for older ladies - it reduces osteoporosis, arthritis and everything else

Yonks ago I used the caterpillar analogy

  • a fat person is losing weight
if they tone as they lose weight, they will come out as a beautiful lean toned butterfly and stay that way
quackingduck222 · 10/03/2018 21:09

Well done frazzled that’s fantastic and the 1.5” is loads.

I’m usually really goal oriented and push my self towards events. But we have nothing on this year. Possibly a holiday but I won’t know until a short while before due to DH work.

I said last time I was away I wanted nice legs by my next holiday but I just can’t see it happening as the loose skin on my inner thighs won’t go. Running is helping firm up everywhere apart from where I need it too. I bought a brush to try dry body brushing but short of a miracle that ain’t gonna happen.

BCF - is there anything I can do to help it?

BigChocFrenzy · 10/03/2018 21:22

Well done on your excellent waist NSV and your SV, frazzled
Intermittent fasting is usually very good at reducing waist fat, provided you moderate sugar & booze.

It is also one of the few weight loss methods that preserves muscle - important for health & shape - which most standard diets don't.

To lose the fat in all the areas you want, you need to keep 5:2ing - as TIP says, no way to spot reduce fat,
but you can firm up flabby bits with resistance training / lifting weights
Pilates or pump class or lifting with a good PT would all help firm things up
and HIIT would boost fat-burning

If you would like a more detailed exercise plan, why not post something about yourself - fitness level, available time, park / home / gym - on the 5:2/IF Exercise Thread #3

My OP there explains how exercise can complement fasting & describes different strokes for folks

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 10/03/2018 21:36

duck iirc, You said you started as size 22 and lost a lot of weight on another diet right before 5:2 ?

If that was a quick loss of a few stone,
then it may have been too rapid for your skin to retain its elasticity
especially if you weren't doing resistance training then, at least a couple of times weekly

At this stage, these tactics may help loose skin to some extent:

  • 2-3 days per week resistance training, to tone up flabby bits, e.g. pilates, pump, lifting weights, bodyweight training - for leg skin particularly bodyweight squats & lunges (no weights) and at the gym the abductor & adductor machines. This is more useful than cardio / running for loose skin.
  • Massage your skin daily with birch oil, which may also help reduce the appearance of cellulite.
  • Cut out fizzy drinks, including diet ones.
  • Drink plenty of water
  • Reasonably healthy food, plenty of veg, with v little sugary / carby junk - but healthy carbs are fine - so your body has plenty of nutrients.
  • Add a drizzle of virgin olive oil to your veg each day
  • Keep within nhs alcohol guidelines
  • ntbo, if you smoke: STOP
OP posts:
permanentlyfrazzled1 · 11/03/2018 00:05

Thanks, BigChoc, TIP and duck. I pretty much don't drink so that's never a temptation, but yep, I do need to watch the odd 'treat' ofriends a sweet snack.
I intend to get back to the Wii exercise program I lost 1.5 stone doing 18 months ago (without changing any eating habits) called 'Fitness Coach' which is a mix of cardio, weight-bearing and yoga moves for flexibility, which is a 30 minute program. And in week 1 of 5:2, I did quite a few 5 minute HIIT sessions on the exercise bike, which I enjoyed, and want to build up to 10 minutes as well. I just have a crazy life and genuinely find it hard to fit me-time in - I home-ed our 4 kids, so am either supervising their work at home, cooking/cleaning, or driving them to activities. By the time they go to bed at 9.30 ish, I just collapse on the sofa, totally out of energy. My only set activity is badminton for 2 hours one evening a week. But I will try, cus I do feel better for egular exercise.
Good luck everyone fasting tomorrow. 👍 Oops, it's now today! 😆

Iateallthebread · 11/03/2018 07:48

Hi frazzled, I home ed too. It is hard to fit in exercise when you don’t get much time to yourself. It’s good that you’ve managed to do some hiit sessions on the bike. I keep saying that I’ll do some exercise use in the morning when I get up before my son but as it’s the only time I get to myself I tend to sit with my cuppa and daydream instead!

quackingduck222 · 11/03/2018 08:33

BCF thankyou, you are a wealth of knowledge.

I will get on YouTube and have a look at what you’ve suggested. I’m interested in the resistance training.

The first time I lost weight the same thing happened but worse as this time round I have been doing some toning. I think it took 9 months to loose 4.5 stone at the time.

In terms of everything else I’d say I’m pretty much a reformed character.
⁃ Diet Coke I now have as a occasional treat. (Twice this year)
⁃ Usually drink 2L water plus green tea & coffee.
⁃ Food wise I’m doing alright. Occasional treat. Lots of meats eggs veg 1/2 my plate. Upped carbs this week and been having the Burgen bread. Lots of mixed beans.
⁃ Been using olive oil
⁃ Alcohol I have rarely (none so far this year)

I’m quite shocked by my list as my diet previously was the opposite. I do take all your advice on board. Eventually Grin

quackingduck222 · 11/03/2018 08:50

Frazzled - I used to have that on the wii and it was very good. Hard tho.

For any of you that are at home and struggle to fit anything in have a look on YouTube. Anything you fancy will be on there. One of my friends has started joe wicks HIIT and said it’s very good.

BigChocFrenzy · 11/03/2018 09:41

I've a busy day, so having an FD.
Anyone else ?

Those are good eating & drinking habits, duck Great improvement
You can order the birch oil (Weleda is good) from Amazon, or get it from most health shops

OP posts:
quackingduck222 · 11/03/2018 09:49

I’m chucking a FD in today as got loads to do.

I looked that up last night, is it a tiny bottle of essential oils? I think I may have been looking at the wrong thing.

BigChocFrenzy · 11/03/2018 14:07

duck No, birch oil comes in 100 or 200ml bottles
Look for "Weleda birch oil"

OP posts:
quackingduck222 · 11/03/2018 15:39

Ah ha, found it thank you so much.

It’s only available on prime for the 200ml version at £27. I’m going to get it.

Got the dry body brush that was recommended on a thread on here and try both recommendations as well as getting back into my old leg toning regime.

I categorically don’t want to go down the surgery route so willing to give anything a go.

BigChocFrenzy · 11/03/2018 15:54

Daily, massage in the oil after you have finished the bodybrush; ntbo don't brush afterwards !

OP posts:
snailhunter · 11/03/2018 16:19

How nice to picture us all looking awesome in our lovely dresses whooping it up in the summer! Especially on such a grey day. I find positive goals work much better for me than negative ones, ie 'I will look awesome in my new dress' rather than 'I will get rid of my disgusting belly'.

TalkinPeace · 11/03/2018 17:21

I had a nice "relaxed" Mothers day in the garden - mulching flower beds with 500kg of compost
Am now drinking fizzy pink because it was a LOT of lifting and bending :-)

quackingduck222 · 11/03/2018 18:13

Tip - so glad you’ve turned up on the other thread. I always look out for your posts as the other people sprout rubbish! Grin

Snail - definitely agree about positive thoughts. Your going to have to post a pic of you in your fabulous dress now.

BCF - once a day I will try for.

TalkinPeace · 11/03/2018 18:15

quacking
I do not spot them all but I do try to debunk where possible
(something to do with the day job as an auditor)

quackingduck222 · 11/03/2018 18:21

Well keep up the great work!

Some posters were outraged that it was 5pm and a person on the thread had only eaten a banana. A few that’s not healthy / normal posts. Grin quite normal if your on a FD!

BlueBelle123 · 11/03/2018 18:42

Welcome all the newbies, I can guarantee you will get great advice and oodles of support Smile

Definitely gone over TDEE today but as its Mother's Day I think its allowed.......looking forward to weigh day tomorrow hoping for a loss after a STS last week.

Some great SV and NSV this week we are all getting ready for spring when a little less clothing will be wornWink

Iamblossom · 11/03/2018 19:06

Evening all, checking in ready for tomorrow's fd. Not looking forward to weigh in tomorrow, only did one fd last week. And have been piggy this weekend.

Am considering a b2b this week....